# No-one pitted the fuckers burning London down yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998 "2011-08-08T21:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/121 "2011-08-09T13:10:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I think **SecondJudith’s** comments are revealing. It is attitudes like that which cause youth problems; an entitlement complex. Its not my duty to work hard to improve my lot; its my right, to get a university education, to get a Blu Ray player or a nice shirt. So just get it. > > Life sucks. You play the best with the hand you are given and work to improve yourself. Not act like a bloody lout. I have to agree - acting like it is a fundamental human right to be granted access to cutting-edge consumer items. Whereas the pseudosocialists SecondJudith and PrettyVacant would have us believe the riots are the noble rallying of the disenfranchised youth against the oppressive state apparatus. The difference that social networking presumably makes in this is that whoever burnt out the car at the end of my road (in Bristol) last night probably felt like part of the mob burning down buildings in the London area. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/122 "2011-08-09T13:11:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Do you think it is easier to get the grades in A levels for entry to higher education in Eton or a Brixton comprehensive? > > Do you think that programs which focus on a small percentage at the top of the academic pool really have any great societal effect when they ignore the overwhelming majority? I am sure its easier to get it in Eton. But then its Apples and ornages, Eton is a public school and Brixton is state. Yet I do know this, when I did the Bar a few years ago, of the 400 people total more then half were from state schools and the Bar Course is very very very difficult to get into, every stereotypical thing you can think about with regards to class it has and yet the guy who got the top marks was black, from Brixton, from a family dependent on benefits (his mother had five kids from four partners) and he went to a local school and later the London Metropolitan Uni. And yet he was good enough through sheer hard work to be a Scholar at Lincoln’ Inn (meaning financial aid), he is now considered one of the brightest prospects in the young Bar. Point is that hard work can get you out of it and take you places. You have to work hard to succeed and that true everywhere. You need top grades to get into the best Universities and for that you need to work hard. Its not rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/123 "2011-08-09T13:16:43Z")
> [@Hallucinex](#): > > I saw there’s [@metpoliceuk](http://twitter.com/#!/metpoliceuk) Nice, but I was thinking more about intercepting calls for riots and looting and showing up before the rioters, or using siezed phones to send out fake messages and send potential looters right to the arms of the police. You know, basic electronic warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/124 "2011-08-09T13:17:48Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Actually, the average Etonite is probably there because his parents had the intention of him getting an education (and the means to purchase said education). And probably sold him the idea that getting an education is a good thing to do. You can get A-levels at the school I work at - but a lot of the kids I see aren’t interested in achieving even the minimum they can. In other news, wealth includes the means to give your offspring a better start. And there I was thinking it just meant more toys. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/125 "2011-08-09T13:18:24Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Point is that hard work can get you out of it and take you places. That’s simply not true and they know it. You can claim that all you want, but they just have to look around and see all the people who worked hard and died poorer than they started. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/126 "2011-08-09T13:21:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s simply not true and they know it. You can claim that all you want, but they just have to look around and see all the people who worked hard and died poorer than they started. Sure. True. I can also see people who did nothing and succeeded. Is life fair? No. If you work hard are your chances of success increased? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/127 "2011-08-09T13:24:28Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Leaving aside your comment about the “ignorant middle class” for a moment, perhaps I turn your question around and ask \*you \*what you think someone can do to change things if they feel their “life opportunities” are under threat. Are you honestly saying that rioting is the only option left to them? Even if it’s _not_ the only option open to them, if that’s what they PERCEIVE the situation to be yes, you are very likely to get riots. Urban riots such as this often take place in an environment with real, serious issues. Some typical ones: - discrimination (racial, class, religious - doesn’t matter, and can be a mix) - poverty (lack of money) - high unemployment (lack of jobs) - lack of good educational opportunities - lack of adequate healthcare access - lack of adequate housing - police brutality (real and/or perceived) You don’t have to hit all those points to get a riot, but the more you have the more likely one is. Also note how often the word “lack” appears in that list. Is anyone here going to deny that race and class discrimination exists in Britain? Is anyone going to deny a high rate of unemployment in London’s poor? Do these young people have the means to get a better education? How crowded is their housing, and how likely the prospect of obtaining better housing? Is there actual or perceived police bias or brutality? It doesn’t _excuse_ any of it, of course, there is no valid excuse here for violence, looting, and arson. But it does make a start on _explaining_ why it happened. While some might look at the situation and say, well, London’s poor live better than a lot of people elsewhere, they have food, clothing, shelter, cell phones, and a bit of money, that ignores the fact that these people feel they have been excluded, discarded, and warehoused in a manner that what they have right now is the best they will _ever_ have. They have nothing to do all day, and see no way to make things better. They have no purpose. They’re in a cage and it’s not even gilded. Now, you can just go back to ignoring all that background and dismiss this as the work of random thugs, but if you do you’re leaving fertile ground for another riot down the line. If you don’t change the conditions that cause such hair-trigger tension you’re only treating the symptoms, not the root causes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/128 "2011-08-09T13:29:48Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > The average Etonite is probably there with the intention of getting an education. > [@villa](#): > > Actually, the average Etonite is probably there because his parents had the intention of him getting an education (and the means to purchase said education). I went to one of the Clarendon schools (not Eton) and I was just about the only one there with the intention of getting an education. Okay, I exaggerate, but probably no more than 50 of the 150-odd kids in my year were interested in anything other than drinking, shagging and the new Wu-Tang record, and at least 25 of the 50 were only interested in sports. > [@](#): > > In other news, wealth includes the means to give your offspring a better start. And there I was thinking it just meant more toys. That’s not news. What _is_ news is the underlying assumption you seem to be making, which is that the offspring of those with no wealth will be mollified by that concept. ETA: None of this should be taken to suggest that I condone the riots. I don’t, and they need to calm the fuck down. But suggesting that they’re all just a bunch of head cases is missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/129 "2011-08-09T13:30:57Z")
> [@Staggerlee](#): > > Whereas the pseudosocialists SecondJudith and PrettyVacant would have us believe the riots are the noble rallying of the disenfranchised youth against the oppressive state apparatus. For the record, I don’t think this is true at all, as I’ve said several times in this thread. > [@Broomstick](#): > > It doesn’t _excuse_ any of it, of course, there is no valid excuse here for violence, looting, and arson. But it does make a start on _explaining_ why it happened. Thank you for making that distinction! I have no idea why it seems so hard for people to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/130 "2011-08-09T13:32:34Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Now you’re simply dodging the question, so I’ll ask it again. What about the ones that met through social networking sites for the specific purpose of causing damage and stealing? Were they all dissaffected youths too? I don’t see why they _couldn’t_ be disaffected youth. Sure, there are probably some criminals taking advantage but the idiots mugging for the CCTV and posting videos of themselves on YouTube are not career criminals. Career criminals know better. > [@](#): > > And do you think the rioters should face punishment for committing arson, criminal damage, robbery and theft? If not, why not? Of course those who commit such crimes should be punished. However, if Britain ignores the context in which these riots are occurring they will simply have more of them in the future. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/131 "2011-08-09T13:36:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I went to one of the Clarendon schools (not Eton) and I was just about the only one there with the intention of getting an education. Okay, I exaggerate, but probably no more than 50 of the 150-odd kids in my year were interested in anything other than drinking, shagging and the new Wu-Tang record, and at least 25 of the 50 were only interested in sports. That was my experience too. Well, not the Wu-Tang part, you whippersnapper. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/132 "2011-08-09T13:39:56Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Are you saying democracy doesn’t work and that the only way to deal with a government you’re unhappy with is through wanton destruction, violence and theft? Yes, \*sometimes \*that is true. See [“tyranny of the majority”.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority) I’m old enough to remember when, in the US, it was legal and considered perfectly acceptable to pay a black man less money than a white man for the exact same job. _There was no legal redress for that injustice_. It used to also be the case that it was legal and acceptable to pay a woman less than a man for the same work. There was institutionalized, legal, exclusion of minorities from geographical areas (redlining). Through vast areas of the US blacks were systematically segregated and given inferior facilities, education, and treatment - _and that was the law_. How was voting going to change that? Answer: it wasn’t. Nothing changed until the uprisings of the 1960’s and a bunch of the majority in the US became convinced that legal discrimination was wrong and detrimental to the country. No, democracy doesn’t always work. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/133 "2011-08-09T13:49:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You really have no idea how higher education works do you? Universities compete actively to get the best and brightest; and they are willing to offer generous financial aid for the same. So there has always been opportunity for the poor but bright to succeed. > > So unless you are suggesting that universities actively prevent lower class kids from entering, your statement is full of shit. Yeah, but it kind of sucks if you’re NOT one of the best and brightest, doesn’t it? And let’s face it - only 10% of the kids in a neighborhood can be the top 10%. So what’s left for the rest of them? Used to be, if you didn’t have the smarts or the money to get a higher education there was still work for you to do - you could get a job in a factory or digging ditches or something, and thus have a purpose to getting up in the morning. If you were willing to work your body harder you had a chance to make a bit extra. Now? If you aren’t in the “best and brightest” and don’t go to university what do you have? The menial jobs are _gone_ outsourced or automated away. These people have no purpose in their lives. What do they have to look forward to, 70 years on the dole, in the same flat, and nothing meaningful to do? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/134 "2011-08-09T14:03:54Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > It’s just British slang. A ratboy is a drug-addicted thieving juvenile delinquent (I think based on a comics character); dosh is money; trainers I think you call sneakers (the kind of shoes you’d wear to work out or play sports, some of which are branded and very expensive); weed is marijuana; cider is an often inexpensive alcoholic apple-flavoured drink; a Happy Meal is fast food from McDonald’s; Red Band are a brand of cigarettes; Wotsits are a mass-produced packaged snack food. That’s about what I assumed. But thanks. Surprisingly, putting the quote into Google already produces this very thread as the top hit. The spiders. They crawl everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/135 "2011-08-09T14:32:56Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Is life fair? No. So if we accept that life isn’t fair, why should people at the bottom of the heap not go on a smash and grab? You are effectively arguing that people should acknowledge the game is stacked, but still play by the rules. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/136 "2011-08-09T14:38:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, but it kind of sucks if you’re NOT one of the best and brightest, doesn’t it? And let’s face it - only 10% of the kids in a neighborhood can be the top 10%. > > So what’s left for the rest of them? > > Used to be, if you didn’t have the smarts or the money to get a higher education there was still work for you to do - you could get a job in a factory or digging ditches or something, and thus have a purpose to getting up in the morning. If you were willing to work your body harder you had a chance to make a bit extra. > > Now? If you aren’t in the “best and brightest” and don’t go to university what do you have? The menial jobs are _gone_ outsourced or automated away. These people have no purpose in their lives. What do they have to look forward to, 70 years on the dole, in the same flat, and nothing meaningful to do? No. They are menial jobs out there ([http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk](http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk) if you want to see yourself) but do you know what? None of these useless ingrates will do them because they think they are beneath them. Every rioter of working age, which I expect is the minority, could get a job as a cleaner, or bar staff or labourer. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/137 "2011-08-09T14:43:35Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So if we accept that life isn’t fair, why should people at the bottom of the heap not go on a smash and grab? > > You are effectively arguing that people should acknowledge the game is stacked, but still play by the rules. The practical answer is that if those on the bottom simply steal shit and burn stuff down, they will most likely be the ones to suffer for it both individually and collectively - regardless of the rights and wrongs of the matter. If society ceases to have general law and order, what you get is the “haves” barracading themselves in with private security, and the “have nots” left to rot. It inevitably exacerbates the divide in society. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/138 "2011-08-09T14:44:47Z")
> [@martu](#): > > No. They are menial jobs out there ([http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk](http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk) if you want to see yourself) but do you know what? None of these useless ingrates will do them because they think they are beneath them. Every rioter of working age, which I expect is the minority, could get a job as a cleaner, or bar staff or labourer. I’d love to work in London on minimum wage. Pavements of gold. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/139 "2011-08-09T14:56:48Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I’d love to work in London on minimum wage. Pavements of gold. Seems plenty of people do otherwise nothing would get done, I’m sorry it isn’t good enough for you My Lord perhaps one could move to Surrey? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998/140 "2011-08-09T15:10:41Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Seems plenty of people do otherwise nothing would get done, I’m sorry it isn’t good enough for you My Lord perhaps one could move to Surrey? Aye, loads of people do, but that is a shite existence, undercut all the time by new recruits. Hey, capitalism. I guess all big cities have these problems though. Not being awfully confrontational, just a bit sad, to be honest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-pitted-the-fuckers-burning-london-down-yet/591998.md?page=8)