# "...no one thought THEY would fly..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818 "2004-04-07T20:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/21 "2004-04-10T02:28:23Z")
Just for clarity - second quote is \*\*Voyager’s{/b], not **Desmostylus** ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/22 "2004-04-10T02:29:44Z")
:smack: %$\*~! coding!!! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/23 "2004-04-10T02:39:41Z")
Well, I’m certainly reassured. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/24 "2004-04-10T02:41:46Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > … So it’s not automatic. It requires Rumsfeld’s say-so. This quote somehow got left out of my previous post. Are the hamsters back? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/25 "2004-04-10T06:26:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Use of lethal force requires approval. No, it’s more complicated than that. The “reference d” document I referred to above mandates prior approval for _potentially_ lethal force. > [@](#): > > [Department of Defense > DIRECTIVE NUMBER 3025.15 > February 18, 1997 > SUBJECT: Military Assistance to Civil Authorities](http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/text/d302515p.txt) > > 4.7.2.1. The Secretary of Defense is the approval authority for any requests for potentially lethal support > (i.e., lethal to the public, a member of law enforcement, or a Service member) made by law enforcement agencies. Lethal support includes: loans of arms; combat and tactical vehicles, vessels or aircraft; or ammunition. It also includes: all requests for support under 10 U.S.C. 382 and 18 U.S.C. 831 (references (k) and (l)); all support to counterterrorism operations; and all support to law enforcement when there is a potential for confrontation between law enforcement and specifically identified civilian individuals or groups. Actual _use_ of lethal force is not permitted at all: > [@](#): > > [CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF > INSTRUCTION J-3 CJCSI 3610.01A > 1 June 2001 > AIRCRAFT PIRACY (HIJACKING) AND DESTRUCTION OF DERELICT AIRBORNE OBJECTS](http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/docs/intercept_proc.pdf) > > 1. Procedures > > a. General. Military personnel will provide the following types of support: intercept, surveillance, lift, equipment, and communications. Military personnel may not participate in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity. This restriction would include the apprehension of aircraft hijackers or use of military aircraft (fixed-wing or helicopter) or other vehicles as platforms for gunfire or the use of other weapons against suspected hijackers. In addition, assistance may not be provided under this enclosure if it could adversely affect national security or military preparedness. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/26 "2004-04-10T12:20:15Z")
I note that that that document is dated for June of 2001 - have they changed the language about use of lethal force since then? If I recall, it _was_ authorized on 9/11/01 even if it was not used by the air force. I mean really, how else are you going to stop a 7x7 if the hijackers aren’t being cooperative? Mind you, I’m quite happy that the use of force in these situations is limited, requires authoritization, etc. - no way do I want a bunch of hair-triggers cruising the skies. I don’t want to see a civilian plane shot down, but neither do I want to see something like the WTC destruction again. Use of lethal force is very, very much a course of last resort. Then again, shooting down a plane isn’t, strictly speaking, an “apprehension” of hijackers. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/27 "2004-04-10T12:48:04Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I note that that that document is dated for June of 2001 - have they changed the language about use of lethal force since then? I really don’t know the answer to that question. > [@Broomstick](#): > > If I recall, it _was_ authorized on 9/11/01 even if it was not used by the air force. I mean really, how else are you going to stop a 7x7 if the hijackers aren’t being cooperative? Bush said that he _did_ authorize it, but I’m inclined to disbelieve stuff that Bush says about 9/11. Not much of what Bush says about 9/11 fits with any of the independently verifiable facts. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Then again, shooting down a plane isn’t, strictly speaking, an “apprehension” of hijackers. Of course it’s not apprehension. It’s “use of military aircraft (fixed-wing or helicopter) or other vehicles as platforms for gunfire or the use of other weapons against suspected hijackers”. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/28 "2004-04-10T13:01:31Z")
BTW, I don’t see anything necessarily sinister in the two directives. Most of the Air Force scrambles prior to 9/11 were directed toward drug flights from central and south America. The directives make it clear that the Air Force is not allowed to shoot them down, regardless of any BS hijacking justification. It’s just too bad that _real_ hijackings didn’t enter into the thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/29 "2004-04-10T13:16:20Z")
As a civilian pilot, I find _reassuring_ to read those two directives on a certain level - I’ve got enough to worry about aloft without dealing with F-16’s loaded for bear. I think “real hijackings” didn’t enter into the thinking behind those directives because, until 9/11, death and destruction was not an objective of hijackers. So the situation could be handled without resorting to guns and missles, the main concerns being keeping the Bad Guys calm and making sure nothing interfered with them on their way to wherever they wanted to go. And no, we don’t want to start gunning down single-engine Cessnas and Pipers along Mexican border willy-nilly - the chances of mistaken identity (drug-runner vs. innocent civilian out for sight-seeing flight) are just too high. NOW we have a different problem - hijackers with a death wish using aircraft as weapons rather than transportation. Very different problem. I’m sure someone is working on potential solutions. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818/30 "2004-04-11T02:14:30Z")
Apparently the general public doesn’t have access to either of those pages. Which makes it totally unhelpful. Tell me, did you just take these off Google, or did you even bother to look at them? I appear to have been misinformed. I will be leaving for Casablanca tomorrow, to take the waters. In point of fact, as I recall, i was running out the door, and took for true the cites as proffered. my bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-thought-they-would-fly/238818.md?page=1)