The word I would use is “horrifying”.
I’m not seeing this, nor am I seeing any authoritative facts being presented, or any evidence to back up the blaring headline at VICE, whose main authority appears to be a questionable source. I’m always skeptical of any claim that “they” don’t want you to know “the truth” because such claims usually reek of unsupportable conspiracy theories. While it’s true that TEPCO was less than forthcoming as the crisis unfolded, and Fukushima indisputably remains a huge problem, there have been many other authorities involved including the IAEA, and a great many analyses done setting bounds on the limits of the problem. Considering the utterly unscientific, incontrovertibly wrong, and vaguely conspiratorial claims that FX has made on the subject of climate change in the past, I think my skepticism that he has somehow (once again) set “the stupid” straight is skepticism that is well warranted.
One of the best sources of early information I found as the crisis at Fukushima was developing was the MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub, run by the students and faculty of the MIT Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering, who did an excellent job assembling credible and authoritative information while much of the media was sensationalizing and getting so much wrong.
It was a decision of the board mods. Probably best to leave that sleeping dog alone.
Well, if you have the heart to slog through it, here is most likely the thread that The Second Stone is talking about good old FXM handing ‘out the best ass spanking of the stupid ever seen in these parts’. Judge for yourself. Probably the thread that inspired the cryptic remarks from FXM that s/he can’t post any new threads about Fukushima as well, since you know he handed out such an ass kicking that the Mods are trying to cover for the rest of the board. 
Nope, here is the thread I was referring to. nuclear dangers Now if FX was wrong, I suspect that people would be back in their homes and the plant well on its way to clean up and decommissioning. That not being the case, it looks like FX was right, and this remains a huge tragedy that is only going to get worse.
There is a middle ground, however. The situation is bad…but isn’t going to get worse. It’s bad – very bad – but not as bad as FXMastermind portrays it.
I must be missing something.
I am told this is a dire situation that will only get worse.
But what I read is that the majority of the dangerous radiation has already radiated out and that we need several decades until it is all taken care of.
I guess I’m not sure why this is a huge surprise or why it spells certain doom.
And what I’m not seeing is a better solution to the problem.
The ‘huge tragedy’ was the tsunami that killed literally 10’s of thousands of people, destroyed 100’s of billions of dollars in damage and made 100’s of thousands homeless and costs gods know how much in economic downturn. The nuclear side, while grave and serious has cost far less in damage and economic downturn and still has yet to kill anyone. It’s certainly increased the probability of some non-zero number of people to get cancer down the road, and no doubt will have other health effects, but it’s orders of magnitude less than the actual disaster. Which folks tried to beat into your and your buddies heads during countless posts in multiple threads.
FXM? Still wrong, still unable to judge relative risk, and his predictions of massive loss of life from the nuclear tragedy? Still hasn’t happened. As to the OP, it’s the same old thing…no one is saying that it wasn’t and still isn’t bad, and that there is a huge task in trying to contain and alleviate the aftermath. But it’s not the end of the world, of Japan or even of the Fukushima province.
Sorry, as I pointed before if you can not see how misleading he was when he used a single outlier slightly higher reading of radiation in California of the Fukushima disaster, then there is nothing that can help you to stop looking silly for defending FX.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13637891&postcount=479
He never took back his scaremongering of how that disaster was also affecting the USA.
If you want independent information about Fukushima radiation levels, the best source in English is Safecast. They are a grassroots, apolitical organization who have crowdsourced millions of data points to show — to a fairly high level of confidence and granularity — radiation levels around the affected area. They distributed information on how to obtain or build your own radiation detectors. They have invited experts from the international community to participate in research and symposiums to disseminate information.
The Vice article is sensationalistic, obviously slanted, and frankly not particularly authoritative. Far too many of the citations point to articles in the RT news network, which should be regarded with the same level of credulity as a tabloid newspaper — at best. I consider anything reported there to be possible propaganda unless independently verified.
Many of the other citations point to a blog that mostly provides translated versions of news articles published in Japanese newspapers. Apparently, newspapers publishing articles constitutes a Sooper Sekrit coverup of vital information in Vice’s view. It just means that few people outside Japan give a fuck. The Japanese are reporting the hell out of it; it’s not their fault no one else can read Japanese.
It’s obvious to anyone living in Japan (I do) and who speaks or reads Japanese (I do) that Tepco can’t really be trusted, but for that very reason no one actually takes Tepco’s reports at face value. The problem is that, to a greater extent than in the US, big business and the government here like to give each other big mutual sloppy blowjobs. Since the public knows that, everyone regards any of the reports with a jaundiced eye and checks independent sources of information. There have been lots (and lots, and lots) of news programs talking about the problems with reporting and cleanup. It’s only “news” to foreign press. There isn’t any sense of cover-up, only exhaustion and frustration with the lack of progress toward solutions.
The one ameliorating remark I’ll make about Tepco is that the problem is incredibly complicated. Ecological disasters have so many moving parts that it’s really damn difficult to do anything without fucking something else up. Even worse, this isn’t like Chernobyl, which could be evacuated and mostly ignored since Russia is a bloody huge country.
Regarding the relative resistance of the Japanese government to soliciting help from the international community, how open is the US to foreign entities meddling in their internal crises? Was Bush falling all over himself to accept foreign aid in the Katrina evacuation and recovery? Did Obama ask for help with Sandy Hook? Think anyone involved in Ferguson would welcome advice from abroad in dealing with their riots?
Realistically, Fukushima is a Japanese problem. It has very little potential to ever affect the outside world in any meaningful way. While I personally think that Japan’s attitude toward international collaboration is shitty, it’s unlikely to change in any time span less than generations — and the current generation is becoming even more insular than the previous one, which at least had a decent amount of international experience through travel funded by thier parents’ bubble-year successes. Outsiders can be “concerned” all they want, but the Japanese know it’s their mess, that they need to clean it up, and that the outside world doesn’t really care all that much since there’s literally an ocean between them and anyone else.
Thank you for an excellent post, Sleel.
I started this thread in part because I think there are a lot of people who don’t want others to know exactly what the disaster wrought but I also think there is by now a lot of data gathered, and so there ought to be a realistic picture somewhere of the situation as it stands and what future likely entails. So I turned to my fellow Dopers to help fight my ignorance.
So I really appreciate you’re pointing out the RT News Network thing. I hadn’t ever heard of them; now I’ll recognize their logo.
Thanks also for the “I live here; this is my city” perspective. Things can look a lot different from far away; an up-close view on things is great.
Regarding RT News, that’s probably an understatement. They are basically the propaganda arm of the Kremlin, kind of like a Russian “Fox News” only worse. They have absolutely no qualms about just making shit up when it suits the Kremlin’s purposes. The resignation of their London correspondent Sara Firth provides a good example.
That sort of shotgun method of poisoning of the well is a sweet tactic. Combined with avoiding even mentioning the actual scientific data, it is a perfect example of how no one wants you to actually know anything about Fukushima, other than it’s not that bad.
You see? Avoid the main point, a report directly from TEPCO, and focus on something else. Or, even better, do like the big media corporations do, and simply not report on it at all. Like when Reuters files a report, and it gets watered down even more (pun intended) before even being mentioned in the MsM. If any actual real information (directly from TEPCO) is mentioned, attack the source as unreliable. Anything to avoid actually discussing what is actually happening. Like how CNN (just an example, it’s the same for the rest) just doesn’t report on the facts. They simply won’t repeat what TEPCO actually reports.
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201307270065
The WSJ reported on this. And now and then you might see stories about the things mentioned in the VICE article. But not in the news. It’s a non story. What’s the story in the quoted news above?
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201307270065 What? Those concentration levels are almost the same as measurements taken during the early phases of the disaster? Lets ignore that. How? It’s easy. The report was from RT.ru so it’smade up. Haha, isn’t that funny. BAM! The shotgun approach is such a good distraction. How do we even know TEPCO ever even said that? If TEPCO actually announced anything, it would show up in the news? And it doesn’t. So it didn’t happen. You can be sure of this, because somebody typed it out on the internet. Everybody relax.
Of course there is no source or way to see if that is accurate. But hey, somebody said it on the internet, so it must be true. Safecast is sampling water from around the plant, from the ocean, examining monkeys, putting cow thyroid glands in a mass spectrometer, measuring the strontium 90 in baby teeth, diagnosing cancers, they are the go to guys for independent verification. No need to worry, they got your back. Relax, everything is fine. They regularly harvest sea life from near the leaking plant and test for levels of strontium and cesium, they sample the ocean water and report on levels, they examine rice harvest and soil from under drain pipes, pull up mud from retention ponds and report on it all.
Exactly, no need to worry. That’s the important message to take away from it all. It’s not really even a problem.
Of course! And when Japan sells you a can of food, a boatload of rice, or some fresh seafood, don’t even bother to check for radiation, because there can’t be any.
http://rt.com/news/fukushima-fish-cesium-radiation-548/
See? Because RT reported that, it must be made up. I bet the Japan’s Fisheries Research Agency never said anything like that. The fish is fine. Eat up.
Oh wait, somebody else mentioned it.
http://nsnbc.me/2014/01/14/japans-fisheries-research-agency-finds-deadly-fukushima-fish/
Probably can’t trust them either. You know why? Because not a single major news outlet reported it. So it must be more propaganda.
Oh sure they used a Science report, but you can’t trust that RT, because it’s fear mongering. You see how they reported that a researcher was saying it looked like radiation was still leaking into the ocean? And that if that was true it would threaten sea life for decades?
Just because it turns out that the plants never stopped leaking into the ocean, and all along more radiation is accumulating in the ocean, that isn’t anything to worry about. It’s Japan’s problem. It’s not like radiation would move around or fish would move. Like how they find radiation in Tuna off of California. It’s not that much Strontium 90. They are just trying to scare you to sell papers and get you to watch the news.
Except of course, you aren’t seeing it on the news or in the papers. Unless you live In Japan. Or Russia.
[QUOTE=FXMastermind]
Except of course, you aren’t seeing it on the news or in the papers. Unless you live In Japan. Or Russia.
[/QUOTE]
And yet, there it was on that web site you linked too (nearly 2 years ago). Yeah, ‘they’ certainly don’t want us to know this stuff unless you are in Japan or Russia and are doing everything they can to hide the truth!
Someone let me know when the damage from Fukushima gets anywhere close to the damage caused by fossil fuels during the same earthquake.
That would be on March 13 2011 of course.
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Someone let me know when the damage from Fukushima gets anywhere close to the damage caused by fossil fuels during the same earthquake.
[/QUOTE]
Can you back that up with more than a flip answer? I honestly don’t know when or even if there was a cross over, but I seriously doubt it was on the first day, considering the tsunami also caused sever damage to several fossil fuel power plants (not to mention the contamination from oil, gas, diesel etc from vehicles destroyed in the tsunami that also contaminated the environment, homes with fuel oil on fire and the like).
He’s terribly wrong about most things, but, technically speaking, he’s right on this – solely based on the cost of the loss of the power plant itself! There almost certainly weren’t enough gasoline or oil fires to amount to the same economic loss as the destruction of the power plant. Add in all the costs of containing the radiation, the health-care costs to the people who responded to the disaster and were exposed, etc. etc.
If, instead, the question had been about a comparison of lives lost, then, no, there will never be a crossover day, when the lives lost because of the reactor melt-down exceeds the lives lost to flooding, buildings collapsing, etc. The earthquake and tsunami were vastly more damaging than the reactor meltdown.
But gasoline and oil caused very, very few of these fatalities. There might have been some due to natural-gas fires or explosions. Of course, even one would exceed the fatalities caused directly by the reactor melt-down.
The problem should not be minimized unfairly…but it also should not be exaggerated, and, alas, that’s all that we’ve seen from him on this topic.
Well, except if we are counting the damage directly from the tsunami then he’s definitely wrong, which is the only way you could factor in the cost of the plant itself into the equation. I read Chronos as asking about indirect damage from I guess secondary effects…burning oil, environmental contamination of fossil fuels/radiation damage to the environment in various ways, etc. So, the indirect costs of Fukushima on the first couple of days wouldn’t be very high, since it was really when the effects of the primary (and secondary and tertiary) power failure and the logistical isolation of the plant (which meant no immediate help could be brought in through the debris and destruction of the road system from the tsunami) that things started to spin out of control and you started to have a real cost and secondary environmental damage.
Probably a pedantic question on my part, and if it had been anyone else I’d have let it pass, but I wanted to see if FXM would back down and just say he was being flip, or if he actually could back it up. Hell, if he could then I’d learn something, since as I said, I really don’t know the answer. 