# No one who makes under $250,000/yr uses tobacco products **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685 "2009-04-02T04:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/21 "2009-04-02T16:06:09Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > Is this the new talking point? Because over on the James Randi Educational Foundation boards, a right-winger made this _exact same argument_ about the tobacco tax, using pretty much the same terminology. :rolleyes: If you disagree with the OP, then argue against it, don’t just say “yep, must be the new talking point!” and act as if that means something. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/22 "2009-04-02T16:06:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well I think you are putting quotes around the wrong words. The relevant words here is “your” as used in “any of your taxes” and “on” as used in “this is a tax on those folks.”. I don’t think the tax on cigareetes is one of “their” taxes or is a tax “on” those folks. > > Let’s look at a hypothetical. Say the government imposes a tax on tire manufacturers of $1 per tire produced. Say Obama raises that tax to $2. A person making less than $250k per year buys a tire. Has Obama violated his campaign promise? You don’t even have to go that far. Let’s say that Obama leaves the cigarette tax exactly where it is. I don’t smoke, and make less than $250,000 a year. If I start buying cigarettes, I’ll be paying the cigarette tax, which I’ve never paid before. My taxes have gone up! Obama broke his promise! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/23 "2009-04-02T16:19:43Z")
But if you didn’t work before and get a job, your taxes will go up too. That’s not a distinction between income-related and sin taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/24 "2009-04-02T16:24:23Z")
Just pointing out the patently ridiculous idea that Obama’s campaign promise was that no-one’s taxes of any form at all would increase, instead of a promise not to raise specifically income-related taxes above their current level. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/25 "2009-04-02T16:25:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well I think you are putting quotes around the wrong words. The relevant words here is “your” as used in “any of your taxes” and “on” as used in “this is a tax on those folks.”. I don’t think the tax on cigareetes is one of “their” taxes or is a tax “on” those folks. Well, they’re the ones paying it. > [@](#): > > Let’s look at a hypothetical. Say the government imposes a tax on tire manufacturers of $1 per tire produced. Say Obama raises that tax to $2. A person making less than $250k per year buys a tire. Has Obama violated his campaign promise? Yes. He said “any”. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Seriously, you can whine and pretend that this is an outrage, but anyone with two neurons to rub together understands this issue. I could, or I could say it was no big gotcha, that it wasn’t a big deal, that it doesn’t make all that much difference, which is what I did. But anyone with two neurons to rub together would notice that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/26 "2009-04-02T16:34:51Z")
I wouldn’t call it a broken promise because it’s a reasonable inference that President Obama wasn’t pledging not to raise cigarette taxes, but the OP’s criticism is a fair one. The bottom line is that \*\*roughly \*\*40 million (disproportionately lower-class) Americans are having their annual tax burden increased by \*\*roughly \*\*$300-$600, which goes against at least the spirit of the President’s campaign pledge. Besides, tobacco taxes are too high already. The market is warped. For example, here in New York City, a pack of Winstons will now cost about $10, but the Winstons that my father has delivered from Russia wind up costing him $1.60 per pack. That is, cigarettes shipped from North Carolina to New York are **six times** more expensive than identical cigarettes which are shipped from North Carolina to Russia and \*then \*to New York. I imagine we can all agree that creating a black market in tobacco is not a good thing, right? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/27 "2009-04-02T16:37:42Z")
Shodan, why would you interpret what Obama said to mean something so patently ridiculous? I don’t like Obama or many of his policies either, but I don’t see the need to resort to that type of argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/28 "2009-04-02T16:41:25Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I wouldn’t call it a broken promise because it’s a reasonable inference that President Obama wasn’t pledging not to raise cigarette taxes, but the OP’s criticism is a fair one. The bottom line is that \*\*roughly \*\*40 million (disproportionately lower-class) Americans are having their annual tax burden increased by \*\*roughly \*\*$300-$600, which goes against at least the spirit of the President’s campaign pledge. > > Besides, tobacco taxes are too high already. The market is warped. For example, here in New York City, a pack of Winstons will now cost about $10, but the Winstons that my father has delivered from Russia wind up costing him $1.60 per pack. That is, cigarettes shipped from North Carolina to New York are **six times** more expensive than identical cigarettes which are shipped from North Carolina to Russia and \*then \*to New York. I imagine we can all agree that creating a black market in tobacco is not a good thing, right? Um. Do you have a website? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/29 "2009-04-02T16:55:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Um. Do you have a website? Not in-thread, on the chance that the mods might have a problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/30 "2009-04-02T16:59:12Z")
Also, Shodan, can you confirm that you understood that the tire tax in my example was imposed on the manufacturer, not a purchaser? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/31 "2009-04-02T17:07:15Z")
Smoking is voluntary. Nobody who makes less than $250K a year has to buy cigarettes. It’s not a tax on _anybody_ because not a single person has to pay it if they don’t want. The headlines on Drudge and elsewhere calling this a “broken campaign promise” are typically sophist, political demogoguery. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/32 "2009-04-02T17:13:15Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Shodan, why would you interpret what Obama said to mean something so patently ridiculous? Because the following two statements are not identical- [ol][li]I am making a firm promise that I will not raise any of your taxes[\*]I am making a firm promise that I will not raise any of your taxes except on cigarettes[/ol]Regards,[/li]Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/33 "2009-04-02T17:15:37Z")
He didn’t raise anybody’s taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/34 "2009-04-02T17:22:53Z")
His words don’t count because he didn’t say “read my lips” which is the political equivalent of “Simon Says”. And it’s not really a tax, it’s money paid into a common HMA which Congress returns to the public in the form of insurance for children. If I were a cigarette company I would change my brand name to “Geitners” and sell them out of the back of trucks tax free. Seriously, the law of unintended consequences may just lower the revenue from this when people gravitate towards [roll-your-owns](http://www.stuffyourown.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/35 "2009-04-02T17:23:07Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I guess not or else, according to Obama’s campaign promise, these taxes would not be increasing. As near as I can tell, [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/) doesn’t list that as a campaign promise. > [@jtgain](#): > > Whether you agree with sin taxes or not, is it wise to raise taxes in the middle of a recession? Yes, if the tax is completely voluntary. If money is so tight that this tax affects your income in any significant way, maybe you shouldn’t be smoking in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/36 "2009-04-02T17:26:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His words don’t count because he didn’t say “read my lips” which is the political equivalent of “Simon Says”. And it’s not really a tax, it’s money paid into a common HMA which Congress returns to the public in the form of insurance for children. > > If I were a cigarette company I would change my brand name to “Geitners” and sell them out of the back of trucks tax free. > > Seriously, the law of unintended consequences may just lower the revenue from this when people gravitate towards [roll-your-owns](http://www.stuffyourown.com/). That’s my next investigation. I did them years ago. You can get set up for about the cost of a carton. Once you have the machine, its cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/37 "2009-04-02T18:19:41Z")
sin taxes are a lot like the lottery, its nothing but a self imposed tax people put on themselves. Claiming that Obama raising tobacco taxes is the same thing as raising general taxes is delusional. it would be like claiming a raise in taxes on cars costing over 100k affects anyone in the lower tax levels is the same thing… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/38 "2009-04-02T18:28:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Smoking is voluntary. Nobody who makes less than $250K a year has to buy cigarettes. It’s not a tax on _anybody_ because not a single person has to pay it if they don’t want. It’s a tax on anybody who buys cigarettes. By that logic, a sales tax isn’t a tax on anybody because nobody has to buy anything, but if some sort of national sales tax was introduced, then people would probably be making the same criticism against Obama, and for much the same reasons. This is a regressive tax, and make it much harder financially for poor people to buy cigarettes. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/39 "2009-04-02T18:37:13Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > That’s my next investigation. I did them years ago. You can get set up for about the cost of a carton. Once you have the machine, its cheap. This may well be outdated information. From the page **Magiver** linked to > [@](#): > > Please be advised that Congress has passed, and the President has signed the State Children’s Health Insurance Program [SCHIP] which will increase the excise tax rate on all tobacco products effective 01 April 2009 > ROLL-YOUR-OWN TOBACCO TAX from $1.0969 per pound to $24.78 (that is not a typo) per pound Sounds like the Roll-Your-Own crowd is about to get seriously shafted with a ~2400% increase in taxes on raw tobacco. Pipe smokers may as well switch those corncob pipes around from the front to the back cause they’re getting cornholed too. On the broader topic of if this constitutes a broken campaign promise, I’ll vote no. This isn’t a tax which is involuntarially imposed on people. People pay exactly as much or as little of this tax as they choose to based on how they purchase and use this product. Taxes people have no control over, SS, Medicare, Income Taxes, those are the taxes I think of when people say they’re raising or lowering taxes on a household. Capital gains taxes are a trickier question. Because of the nature of Capital Gains, it could be argued they are as avoidable as Excise taxes. Just don’t invest capital in ways which could gain value. That’s kind of nonsensical, but it does open the door to criticism that “No increase in Any taxes” should apply to those we are obliged to pay because of our choices. So I can kind of see an argument there. Still, I don’t think of Federal Excise taxes on tobacco as “my taxes” so I don’t interpret the promise as including them. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685/40 "2009-04-02T18:45:29Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Not in-thread, on the chance that the mods might have a problem with that. I just want to point out that the prices for online cigarettes are low because the state/federal tax is not applied at the point of sale. The purchaser is still required to pay the applicable taxes and not doing so is illegal. So the websites themselves are not violating any law. However, they usually do not implicitly state the above and ignorant purchasers can get in a lot of trouble when the law comes-a-knockin’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-one-who-makes-under-250-000-yr-uses-tobacco-products/491685.md?page=3)