No outrage here about the UF taser incident at the Kerry speach?

[bdgr]

Hmm…

FIrst of all, having worked inpatient psych and having been directly involed in an extreme number of physical restraints, and previous to that having worked security in night clubs and having been involved in an extreme number of arrests and hundcuffings where we didn’t have tazers…

I Personally believe that no cop should ever go hands on if they have a taser, it is far too dangerous to both parties. If someone is fighting you, like this guy, the taser is the LEAST violent thing you can do to get them under control

Those who say police should just force them to the ground rather than tase are missing the point…forcing someone to the ground is the more dangerous and more painful alternative. I have an old uniform with blood stains down the front of it to remind me of that. Man, I wish we had a taser that night.
Next,

The idiot in this case forced the issue when he resisted the officers. At the point that they had ordered him to leave, had him on the ground, and he was told he would be tased it could end only one of two ways, he would comply, or get tased. He chose to be tased.

Before that happened, they had a legal right to ask him to leave, and by his refusing to do so they had every right and duty to arrest him once he refused.
But where this falls apart is that they actually interfered in the first place. As long as Kerry was willing to answer, and still somewhat in control they should have stood by and let things progress. There comes a time when you have to act but it wasn’t there yet. So while none of their actions toward the end were out of line, how they got there was.

[ambushed]

@bdgr

As long as Kerry was willing to answer, and still somewhat in control they should have stood by and let things progress.

The cops were not given that option. They were instructed to remove Meyer by the appropriate authority. That was not the cops’ fault.

[bdgr]

@ambushed

The cops were not given that option. They were instructed to remove Meyer by the appropriate authority. That was not the cops’ fault.

If so, thats the fault of whoever made that call…

[Paul_in_Qatar]

Ve vere vere only vollowing ze orders!

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@ambushed

Your question does not compute. How could they have known he was so determined, allowing them to choose to deprive him of what he wanted? They had to be there in the first place, and they were acting on the explicit instructions of authorized staff to remove him. He sought a fight with the cops and went out of his way to ensure he achieved exactly that. How is that the cops’ fault?

I find ‘cops’ to be a pejorative term. I avoid it.

I would suppose trained, polite policemen would not have given the fellow a chance to cause a disturbance. If he caused one, I would supposed good policemen would have not escalated it.

[ambushed]

@Paul in Saudi

I find ‘cops’ to be a pejorative term. I avoid it.

Your choice, of course, but my two uncles who were Chicago cops used the word all the time and approved it’s use completely.

@Paul in Saudi

I would suppose trained, polite policemen would not have given the fellow a chance to cause a disturbance. If he caused one, I would supposed good policemen would have not escalated it.

Suppose away!

Meyer went there to start a fight with the cops and wouldn’t have left until he got one. It’s absurd to think the cops could have prevented that.

[An_Gadai]

@bdgr

But where this falls apart is that they actually interfered in the first place. As long as Kerry was willing to answer, and still somewhat in control they should have stood by and let things progress. There comes a time when you have to act but it wasn’t there yet. So while none of their actions toward the end were out of line, how they got there was.

This I agree with entirely. Well said.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@ambushed

Meyer went there to start a fight with the cops and wouldn’t have left until he got one. It’s absurd to think the cops could have prevented that.

I note the policeman hit him from behind while he was talking. Who started a fight?

[spifflog]

Can we use some common sense here? From my vast experience of 40 years on the planet, some spent around drunk and college age guys, it is blatantly apparent that this guy was itching for a confrontation. And it is very apparent, at least to me, that he was going to push the envelope until he got the confrontation. So the Administration decided that we’ll give him his wish earlier, rather than later so they could move on with the program that hundreds of people came to attend.
Why should the Cops or those in charge of the event wait this guy out? He jumped to the head of the line. He was rude. Asked a lengthy largely incoherent question. The University will get how much time of a Senator who is running for President? 45 minutes maybe? So they should allow this clown to monopolize the Senators time to create a scene? What about the rights of the several hundred people who were there to listen to the speech and questions? Do they have a “right” to listen to a legitimate dialog, or do they have to be treated to the ramblings of a 19 year old for as long as he wants to rant, as long as he doesn’t “physically harm” someone? Why do his rights triumphs those who are there, being polite and are not breaking the law?

[Paul_in_Qatar]

Good point. Beating him up because he was rude. That explains it.

(You know, you figure these are campus police. You cannot swing a dead cat on a campus without hitting some self-important drama queen. You would have thought they would have handled it better.)

[spifflog]

@Paul in Saudi

Good point. Beating him up because he was rude. That explains it.

(You know, you figure these are campus police. You cannot swing a dead cat on a campus without hitting some self-important drama queen. You would have thought they would have handled it better.)

You get an A for hyperbole Paul. Between the rubber hoses, bats, and having his fingernails pulled out, he’ll never be the same again. :rolleyes:

Did you really want to write that he was beaten up?

He was working hard to be rude and disruptive. And in my opinion, was determined to have a confrontation. If the administration wanted to actually have control of the event that they planned, scheduled and sponsored so that the other 300 people could hear what they came to hear, (which seems reasonable to me) how could it be handled better?

[Latro]

@spifflog

Why should the Cops or those in charge of the event wait this guy out?

Jeezus what is so difficult here, people.
Have none of you ever seen real police from civilised nations in action?

It starts with " Sorry Sir? Sir? would you mind going back to you seat, Sir?"

then something like ‘You are disturbing the peace, please go back to your seat, now!’

Only then do you become physical, in a friendly, calm, swift manner place an arm-lock uttering the words, “Look, would you mind stepping outside for a bit”
It happened to me on occasion, I didn’t see it here.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@Latro

Jeezus what is so difficult here, people.
Have none of you ever seen real police from civilised nations in action?

It starts with " Sorry Sir? Sir? would you mind going back to you seat, Sir?"

then something like ‘You are disturbing the peace, please go back to your seat, now!’

Only then do you become physical, in a friendly, calm, swift manner place an arm-lock uttering the words, “Look, would you mind stepping outside for a bit”
It happened to me on occasion, I didn’t see it here.

Why do you hate America? Is it because of our Freedom?

On another board, someone pointed out at any handful of strip club bouncers could have done a more professional job. (Not that I have any first-hand experience with strip club bouncers. I read about them in books. Really.)

[stolichnaya]

I get Paul’s question. Since there was no pre-knowledge that he was determined to fight until he got tased (which is still a deduction and not a fact, even days after the incident), how were the officers to know that this was his intention? Should they assume that being tased is the intention of everyone who acts strangely or resists ejection from a room?

Say that a cop stops a car for speeding, and the driver is speeding because he is on his way to kill his wife. Later we discover that the driver has published a blog that says “I’m going to drive to Texas and kill my ex-wife”. Should the cop, with no knowledge of his intention, arrest him for attempted murder? Or should he handle it in the manner of a normal speeding stop?

[Skywatcher]

@Latro

Jeezus what is so difficult here, people.
Have none of you ever seen real police from civilised nations in action?

It starts with " Sorry Sir? Sir? would you mind going back to you seat, Sir?"

then something like ‘You are disturbing the peace, please go back to your seat, now!’

Only then do you become physical, in a friendly, calm, swift manner place an arm-lock uttering the words, “Look, would you mind stepping outside for a bit”
It happened to me on occasion, I didn’t see it here.

The event organizers tried that before getting the police invovled.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

I did not see that on the tape. Did you?

But let’s not forget the main point. This story has chased the Florida State Girls at football games in halter tops off of YouTube. That is not good.

[Acsenray]

@Paul in Saudi

I find ‘cops’ to be a pejorative term. I avoid it.

What gives you the impression that it’s pejorative? Every cop I know personally uses the term freely as a casual synonym for “uniformed law enforcement official.”

[bdgr]

Back in the 80’s or so I was working security in this horrible massive redneck bar out on Fort Worth’s infamous jacksburo hwy. I was uniformed security, badge, gun, handcuffs, 6 d cell maglite all in in plain view. One of my jobs was to shut down the pool room a bit before close because in texas everyone has to stop drinking at 2 am which in effect meant everyone had to be out the door by then, and you didn’t want some stragler starting a game at 1:59.

So, On this night I was standing there in the pool room leaning up against the wall (you tried to keep your back to a wall in this joint) watching this two cowgirls shoot pool so that I coould turn the lights over the tables out the second they finished. A short stocky guy with a huge beard and a goofy cowboy hat walks up to me. I notice he has a friend stand a few feet back watching.

“They must be pretty dangerous, if you are having to stand her and watch them like that”

“no sir,” I said as slipped a can of pepper spray out of my shirt pocket and kept it concealed in my hand. We carried big cans on our belt, I found some times having this littl AA battery size one that you can conceal is best" Just waiting for them to finish their game so I can turn off the lights".

“You’re a big guy” he took another drink of beer “Bet you never had your ass kicked have you?”
“Oh I’ve had my ears pinned back before”

“I bet it wasn’t by a short bull like me was it?”

“No, they weren’t”

He takes another drink of his beer, all the time never breaking eye contact. Just glaring at me. I thumb the saftey off of the pepper spray. He of course can’t see this.

“This is a nice place. I think I might like to COME BACK here.”

“And we would love to have you, sir. We hope you enjoy it here”

“Good. then I think I will BE BACK”

“You have a good night”
After this he wandered off with his friend. He stopped to talk to my partner on the way out the door. I kept an eye on him but he kept moving. My partner walks up
“Did you have words with that gentlmen?” I tell him the story.

“He said to tell you he’d be back.”
Point is, this guy was drunk, and looking to start a fight. And I was ready for it. But I didn’t play into it and in the end he got bored of it and left. I know bouncers that would have gone ahead and thrown him out…I’ve seen it. But your job, as security or as a cop is to try and keep the peace, not confront if you dont have to.

We’ll never know if this idiot would have continued to escalate or not. Kerry has made the point that in 37 years he’s never had a problem and didn’t think this would be a problem either…I’m sure he’s run into idiots like this before. If they guy really gets out of control theres plenty of time to act on it.

[bdgr]

@acsenray

What gives you the impression that it’s pejorative? Every cop I know personally uses the term freely as a casual synonym for “uniformed law enforcement official.”

Heh…I’ve only seen on cop I know react to the term. I was working in a convience store and this cop walks in and a little kid walks up to him and says “are you a cop?”

“No, I’m a Police Officer”

The nervous parents rushed up and corrected the little tyke.

“Thats right, he’s a Police Officer” and hurried out the door. The officer turned to me and said “actually…I’m a pig.”

[Magiver]

@Paul in Saudi

I find ‘cops’ to be a pejorative term. I avoid it.

I would suppose trained, polite policemen would not have given the fellow a chance to cause a disturbance. If he caused one, I would supposed good policemen would have not escalated it.

They didn’t. That’s the whole point. They were professional and gave him a warning. It wasn’t a debate. He declined and continued his course of evasion. When it became physical he got tased before someone got injured. There’s no middle ground in a physical confrontation with police. They did their job exactly how it should have been done.