# No Palestinian state, says Sharon aid **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892 "2004-10-06T18:40:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/1 "2004-10-06T18:40:41Z")
[Sharon Aide Nixes Palestinian State](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20041006/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_2) > [@](#): > > JERUSALEM - The real objective of Ariel Sharon (news - web sites)'s offer to withdraw from the Gaza Strip (news - web sites) and parts of the West Bank is to freeze Palestinian statehood indefinitely, with U.S. blessing, the prime minister’s point man with the Bush administration said in an interview published Wednesday. Won’t this just further increase terrorism and guarantee that the Palestinians won’t stop sending out suicide bombers? In the long run, couldn’t this spell out suicide for Israel? The whole situation is goddamn depressing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/2 "2004-10-06T18:48:04Z")
When’s the next Israeli election, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/3 "2004-10-06T20:06:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > When’s the next Israeli election, anyway? The last election were held on January 28, 2003. The next ones will come on or before January 28, 2007. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/4 "2004-10-06T21:06:48Z")
This paragraph from the Yahoo item may explain what is going on: > [@](#): > > The Israeli adviser’s comments appeared largely aimed at courting Israeli hard-liners. The prime minister has lost his parliamentary majority over the withdrawal plan and has not been able to broaden his coalition during the summer recess. Parliament is reconvening next week and will vote on the Gaza withdrawal in coming months. I remain persuaded, however, that both sides are playing hardball and it is a game that can only result in the annihilation of not only Palestinian hopes for statehood but of the Palestinian people them selves. Sooner or later, in the absence of some dramatic change, historical Palestine will cease to be a divided house. It will become all one thing or all the other. Right now the smart money is on it becoming all Israel with a displaced Palestinian population that will continue to be a source of chaos and disorder in the region with dire consequences for Jordan, Syria and Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/5 "2004-10-06T23:24:06Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > it is a game that can only result in the annihilation of not only Palestinian hopes for statehood but of the Palestinian people them selves. There is a word for that. No need to be shy, this is the Straight Dope. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/6 "2004-10-07T00:43:20Z")
I’m thinking of a word too. Though I suspect it’s different from yours. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/7 "2004-10-07T00:45:03Z")
Like I say, don’t be shy now. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/8 "2004-10-07T00:59:53Z")
Please, don’t start that again. Jesus. Is this never gonna end, until both the Palestinians and the Israelis have wiped each other out? What’s the use? ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/9 "2004-10-07T01:02:28Z")
The word I’m thinking of is “impossible,” because you can’t destroy a people who don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/10 "2004-10-07T01:08:12Z")
**Paul** , you are going to have to explain that. It certainly looks as if there are a whole batch of people at the far end of the Mediterranean who _think_ that they are Palestinians. It also looks as if those people are at the bottom of a very deep hole. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/11 "2004-10-07T01:14:21Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > The word I’m thinking of is “impossible,” because you can’t destroy a people who don’t exist. Too bad for you then that they do exist. Although if some people have their way, they won’t in the future. Like it or not, there are a people called the Palestinians. Israel exists, and some portions of the Middle Eastern population will have to accept that. Likewise, hard line extremist supporters for Israel have to grant that the the Palestinians are there, and that like it or not, they’re not going away. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/12 "2004-10-07T02:55:28Z")
Mark Twain travelled along people who were called and called themselves Palestinians (sometimes, often they called themselves just Arabs or Jews or whatever) in an Ottoman province definitely called Palestine in 1869. If you’re asking the author of the greatest American novel of all time a liar, I shall have to ask you to step outside! :mad: Actually, I get impatient too and wish we didn’t have a dog in this fight, but 9/11 proved that grievances from that part of the world have a way of spreading their nihilistic suicidal evil everywhere. But I’m forty and as long as I could read I’ve been reading about this stuff. Everybody President we have tries to help and gets his hand slapped away. Yargh. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/13 "2004-10-07T03:05:53Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > There is a word for that. > > No need to be shy, this is the Straight Dope. Does that word begin with “g”? ---
**Author:** ![kezami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb8c5e/32.png) [@kezami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kezami)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/14 "2004-10-07T03:37:28Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Does that word begin with “g”? Can I buy a vowel, or two, or three?? e o i Gee, this is fun! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/15 "2004-10-07T03:48:15Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Likewise, hard line extremist supporters for Israel have to grant that the the Palestinians are there, and that like it or not, they’re not going away. \*\* Paul Fitzroy \*\*, according to a previous statement, hopes that they will be expelled so that Israel can be extended to the west bank and Gaza. So he definitely expects that they will actually go away. There’s a name for that too. As a clue, it begins by “ethnic”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/16 "2004-10-07T05:32:52Z")
Back to maturity folks. The word for it is local politics. Sharon is losing his right flank and wasn’t able to get them to go along with his plan for a withdrawl from Gaza. Now rockets from Gaza have actually hit their mark and are getting more accurate. He needs to sell his withdrawl plan to his own hardliners. That sell is becoming harder and harder to make. Perhaps impossible now. There can be no whiff of even an appearence of capitulation to terror tactics. You think politics is about sincerity? If Israel pulls out from the vast vast majority of the occupied territories, and does so in a way that prevents terrorists from entering or harming Israel, then the Palestinian people (yes, a modern creation but a real identity now nevertheless) have a chance to rule themselves and to perhaps build a country. A chance denied by fellow Arabs from 1948 to 1967. Palestinian leaders would have to get past blaming Israel for all their ills. Perhaps negotiations would then get to the important stuff, tax base sharing, cooperative projects for tourism and industry, etc. etc etc. If security is assured Israel would benefit from having no fence too. I should live to see the day. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_loblaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@bob\_loblaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_loblaw)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/17 "2004-10-07T06:29:45Z")
some excerpts from the actual interview: > [@](#): > > “The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process,” Weisglass, one of the initiators of the disengagement plan, said in an interview for the Haaretz Friday Magazine. > > “And when you freeze that process,” Weisglass added, "you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. > > “Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress.” > > “The disengagement is actually formaldehyde,” he said. “It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.” (The full interview will appear on Friday.) > {…} > “You know, the term `peace process’ is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it’s the return of refugees, it’s the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen… what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did.” [ha’aretz](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/485680.html) ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/18 "2004-10-07T07:49:51Z")
Name one leader of this mythical “Palestine” - who was its president, prime minister or king? Name one nation that had diplomatic relations with “Palestine.” What was the currency of “Palestine”? The Arabs themselves always denied that “Palestine” or “Palestinians” exist. “There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.” - Dr. Philip Hitti, an Arab historian representing the Muslim world, addressing the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in 1946. “Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identify serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel,” - Zuheir Muhsin, the head of the terrorist PLO’s “military department” in a March 1977 interview with Trouw, a Dutch daily newspaper. Here’s what Mark Twain had to say about said individuals: “Rags, wretchedness, poverty and dirt, those signs and symbols that indicate the presence of Moslem rule more surely than the crescent flag itself, abound. Lepers, cripples, the blind and the idiotic assail you on every hand, and they know but one word of but one language apparently - the eternal ‘bucksheesh’ [bakhsheesh, “alms”]… Jerusalem is mournful, and dreary, and lifeless. I would not desire to live here.” Throughout The Innocents Abroad are similar passages. There are starving children with arms like “broom handles” and crippled old men with legs “gnarled like grapevines.” The entire population of a Syrian village swarmed Twain’s party: "As we rode into Magdala not a soul was visible. But the ring of the horses’ hoofs roused the stupid population, and they all came trooping out - old men and old women, boys and girls, the blind, the crazy and the crippled, all in ragged, soiled and scanty raiment, and all abject beggars by nature, instinct and education. "How the vermin-tortured vagabonds did swarm! How they showed their scars and sores, and piteously pointed to their maimed and crooked limbs, and begged with their pleading eyes for charity! We had invoked a spirit we could not lay. They hung to the horses’s tails, clung to their manes and the stirrups, closed in on every side in scorn of dangerous hoofs - and out of their [Muslim] throats, with one accord, burst an agonizing and most infernal chorus: ‘Howajji, bucksheesh! Howajji, bucksheesh! Howajji, bucksheesh! Bucksheesh! Bucksheesh!’ “Next you meet a young boy without any clothes on, and he holds out his hand and says ‘Bucksheesh!’ - he don’t really expect a cent, but then he learned to say that before he learned to say ‘Mother,’ and now he cannot break himself of it.” In another chapter, Twain visits the cave of the Witch of Endor, famous from the Biblical account of King Saul, where the filthy Arab “vermin” - Twain’s word - who lived in the neighboring caves and mud hovels first beg “alms” and then refuse to let him drink from their spring: "We rode a little way up a hill and found ourselves at Endor, famous for its witch. Her descendants are there yet… It was Magdala over again, only here the glare from the eyes was fierce and full of hate. "The population numbers 250, and more than half the citizens live in caves in the rock. Dirt, degradation and savagery are Endor’s specialty… “A spring trickles out of the rock in the gloomy recesses of the cavern, and we were thirsty. The citizens of Endor objected to our going in there. They do not mind dirt; they do not mind rags; they do not mind vermin; they do not mind barbarous ignorance and savagery; they do not mind a reasonable degree of starvation, but they do like to be pure and holy before their god, whoever he may be, and therefore they shudder and grow almost pale at the idea of Christian lips polluting a spring whose waters must descend into their sanctified gullets.” ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/19 "2004-10-07T11:13:07Z")
**Paul Fitzroy** , if I could see a pseudo-coherent argument in your post I would enjoy a brief moment of target practice, unfortunately there’s nothing that hangs together in your customary disgorgement of invective. So here’s a few tips: learn to develop theses for your arguments, start appreciating the value of a coherent discussion as opposed to merely spewing your cheap bias, quit it with the bigoted bullshit already, and (as I said to you before) **engage brain before putting little activist typing fingers in drive**. I think this must be the first time I have seen anyone attempt to deal with ethnic conflict by _willing_ millions of people into non-existence! How 1984ish… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892/20 "2004-10-07T12:38:18Z")
Uh **Abe** , I may strongly disagree with his point but he has one. There was no identity of “Palestinian” before it was created in reaction to the creation of Israel. There was no Palestinian people that were displaced. There were Arabs who happened to live in the region called Palestine. The cultural identity of “Palestinian” was created by virtue of what has followed over the past 50 plus years. What **Paul** doesn’t get is that the identity _now_ exists and must be dealt with. “Facts on the ground” as they say. He believes in a Greater Israel, not too dissimilar to those who believed America had a manifest destiny or is rightfully an empire today. It is wrong headed and a small minority view but not incoherent. The problem is that so long as there is no leadership from the Palestinian side willing and able to deliver the goods of security and peace in return for a reasonable negotiated settlement (and there is not) the hard line position becomes more similar to his and the current condition gets racheted into place. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-palestinian-state-says-sharon-aid/267892.md?page=2)