# NO pardons for Trump and his cronies **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777 "2019-09-24T23:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/41 "2019-09-25T05:16:31Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > You good with things? No, but the country is not ruined forever. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/42 "2019-09-25T07:07:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, but the country is not ruined forever. “No, but God knows we keep trying.” — Harvey Milk Or may have just been a quote from the movie. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/43 "2019-09-25T08:20:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It is inevitable that whenever someone mentions treason, someone has to point out how it is defined in the Constitution. But some go by the colloquial definition of doing something to the severe detriment of the country. If we set the bar THAT low, it could put everyone who votes for a Republican (for ANYTHING) in jeopardy of losing life, liberty and property… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/44 "2019-09-25T12:41:53Z")
Y’know, I’m usually one of the people who’s quoting that Constitutional definition of treason, and pointing out that it doesn’t apply. And in fact, Trump’s obstruction of justice, sexual assaults, terrorist threats, incitements to violence, tax evasion, frauds, violations of immigration law, and (just recently) falsification of National Weather Service data, along with most of his other crimes, are not treason. In addition to all of those non-treason crimes, however, we also have that he’s cooperated with a foreign country in the commission of acts that that foreign country has officially described as acts of war. That is, in fact, aiding and abetting an enemy, by any sane definition. So yes, Trump has committed treason. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/45 "2019-09-25T12:45:18Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > If we set the bar THAT low, it could put everyone who votes for a Republican (for ANYTHING) in jeopardy of losing life, liberty and property… Sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/46 "2019-09-25T12:56:44Z")
Getting back on topic – seeing as it has been pretty much ignored from the second post on – the President’s pardon power is effectively unlimited (with the possible exception of pardoning himself, which has never been addressed by the Supreme Court). This has been ruled on many times. If Trump decides to pardon every person in his administration, or who ever was in his administration, plus Antonio Brown and Bernie Madoff, even at 11:59 AM on the day the next President is sworn in, it is completely legal and subject to no oversight. Many other Presidents have issued controversial last-minute pardons (eg: Marc Rich); it is almost routine. Whether or not this is a Good Thing, on the other hand, is an entirely different question. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/47 "2019-09-25T13:08:39Z")
Yes, pretty much so. I suspect his ability to pardon himself will indeed be tested in court. Of course the Good Courts of The States can just laugh at the pardons and say “Begone! You have no power here!” ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/48 "2019-09-25T14:10:43Z")
Whether he has committed “treason” or not, he is not going to be convicted of treason. Jesus Christ people. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/49 "2019-09-25T14:21:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You know that “treason” has an actual definition, right? It’s not just “orange man bad”. You’ve got to be able to demonstrate the elements of the crime, and you can’t do that, because President Trump’s actions don’t meet the elements of that crime. The fact that you think all of this can be summed up as “orange man bad” really shows just how little you’ve been paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/50 "2019-09-25T14:41:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **BobLibDem** : > > Yes, pretty much so. I suspect his ability to pardon himself will indeed be tested in court. It probably won’t be. The Justice Department has decided to take the stance that he can’t even be indicted (at least on federal charges) while he’s in office. And after he’s out of office, when Justice might be willing to pursue cases against him, he won’t have any pardon power at all any more. The only way it could come up would be if, right before he leaves office, he pardons himself for “all of the crimes I have committed”, but that would mean Trump admitting that he’d done wrong, which I can’t see him doing, not even to save his own skin. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/51 "2019-09-25T14:47:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Trump 2020: I’m not quite as guilty as George Bluth! Trump 2020: It wasn’t technically Treason! ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/52 "2019-09-25T16:30:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My preference is that politicos not use criminal law to settle political disputes. I don’t think that’s healthy for the country. And its my preference that we not elect criminals who break laws in order to settle political disputes, which is also not healthy for the country, but we don’t always get what we want. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/53 "2019-09-25T17:08:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It probably won’t be. The Justice Department has decided to take the stance that he can’t even be indicted (at least on federal charges) while he’s in office. And after he’s out of office, when Justice might be willing to pursue cases against him, he won’t have any pardon power at all any more. The only way it could come up would be if, right before he leaves office, he pardons himself for “all of the crimes I have committed”, but that would mean Trump admitting that he’d done wrong, which I can’t see him doing, not even to save his own skin. You might be right. I can’t argue with your logic. I think it all depends on whether he can objectively process the pile of shit that he’s at the bottom of. If I was him I might say “My number one job is to keep myself out of prison, so right before the door hits me in the butt I’m going to pardon myself. Maybe it works and maybe it won’t, but it won’t hurt me.” Or he might say “I didn’t do nothing wrong! Fake news! I don’t need no steenking pardon!” So he may or he may not pardon himself. I’m betting that Ivanka talks him into it: “Daddy, I can’t bear to see you go to jail. Make it stop!” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/54 "2019-09-25T17:19:26Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > the President’s pardon power is effectively unlimited (with the possible exception of pardoning himself, which has never been addressed by the Supreme Court). At the federal level. He has no immunity from the State of New York. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/55 "2019-09-25T19:14:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … The only way it could come up would be if, right before he leaves office, he pardons himself for “all of the crimes I have committed”, but that would mean Trump admitting that he’d done wrong, which I can’t see him doing, not even to save his own skin. Here is the wording from [Nixon’s pardon](https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/740061.asp): > [@](#): > > Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974. Notice the “or may have committed”? Doesn’t seem to me like Nixon had to admit that he’d done wrong. What’s to prevent President Trump from writing a pardon along the lines of “I grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto myself for all offenses against the United States which I may be accused of having committed prior to noon on Jan. 20, 2024”? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/56 "2019-09-25T19:16:53Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > If he and/or they are pardoned there will be riots. DC will burn. A lot of cities will burn. “You better not, or else we’ll burn our own cities down” _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/57 "2019-09-25T19:20:53Z")
"…offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed… " I like this part. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/58 "2019-09-25T19:26:50Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > “Narrowly defined” is for suckers. Ask Mitch about changing the rules. Trump and his administration are a cancer. Chemotherapy is advised. We’re the Good Guys, we follow the law. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/59 "2019-09-25T20:18:54Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > I’d like to jump ahead a little and talk about after the endgame. Regardless of how Trump’s administration ends, impeachment or election, there is going to be talk of pardons ala Nixon. > > No. Absolutely not. > > Assuming that the president has America’s best interests as his priority is what got us here. We can no longer coast along on that assumption. > Trump, his family, and everyone in his administration need to be prosecuted for any laws they broke. The main problem I see with this is, I would expect that Trump would pardon all of his family members and cronies on January 19, 2021 (or 2025, if he manages to get re-elected - after 2016, I try not to add words like “somehow” to statements like that). You are not going to get a court to say that the pardons are invalid. As for Trump himself, he’d probably fly to France and hide behind Roman Polanski; he seems to know how to keep from being dragged back to the USA for trial - he even managed to win an Oscar while doing it! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/60 "2019-09-25T20:47:35Z")
From the trivia desk: [This Wikipedia page shows 14 persons convicted of treason against the United States or one of its states.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_convicted_of_treason#United_States) (Five of the 14 were subsequently pardoned or had their conviction annulled.) Is this a complete list? The list contains three names I recognize: Tokyo Rose, Axis Sally, and John Brown of Osawatomie. Three of the 14 were convicted of treason against a _state_, rather than against the United States: Governor Dorr (conviction later annulled), leader of a Rhode Island Suffrage movement; John Brown the Martyr (convicted by Virginia); and one of Brown’s soldiers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777.md?page=4)