# NO pardons for Trump and his cronies **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777 "2019-09-24T23:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/61 "2019-09-25T21:20:47Z")
John Brown “the Martyr”? Is that a thing people call him? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/62 "2019-09-26T11:41:23Z")
If you’ve heard of him at all, you’ve heard him called that. Him being called that is the reason why he’s even in the history books. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/63 "2019-09-26T11:52:29Z")
How can you stop Trump using the pardon power? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/64 "2019-09-26T11:59:12Z")
You probably can’t. But he can’t do squat about charges brought by state’s AG’s. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/65 "2019-09-26T12:02:55Z")
> **[John Brown - the martyr. Meeting a slave mother and her child on the steps of...](https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A127833)** > > Print depicting the fictitious meeting between John Brown and an enslaved African American mother on the radical abolitionist's walk to the gallows in December 1859. Shows Brown, his hands tied behind his back, standing at the door of the Charles... John Brown – the martyr. Artwork. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/66 "2019-09-26T12:04:33Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > You probably can’t. But he can’t do squat about charges brought by state’s AG’s. I hope that gets tested. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/67 "2019-09-26T12:32:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If you’ve heard of him at all, you’ve heard him called that. I’ve heard of him, and seen him depicted in a movie or two. I couldn’t tell you the details of what he did or how he died. I knew he was an abolitionist who took direct action against the slavers. However, I can’t recall ever hearing the exact epithet “John Brown the Martyr” before. I’d expect that most people have heard of him through the song “John Brown’s Body” and only the first verse and chorus. > [@](#): > > Him being called that is the reason why he’s even in the history books. He’s in the history books for the actions he took, and the people he inspired, not for a name he was given. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/68 "2019-09-26T13:16:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > … I’d expect that most people have heard of him through the song “John Brown’s Body” and only the first verse and chorus. > > He’s in the history books for the actions he took, and the people he inspired, not for a name he was given. The song was the most popular song of any, in the North, during the Civil War. By inspiring many Northerners with a noble mission to free the slaves, the Union kept courage and a strong sense of purpose; and persisted in the face of huge horrors. Some historians believe that without Brown’s inspiration, the fight would have been abandoned at some point, and secession accepted. Whether or not the specific phrase “the Martyr” was commonly applied, it was specifically his martyrdom — and his unflinching courage as he stood on the gallows while slavers prepared to hang him — that inspired the Union and indeed Europe as well. Some even compared his martyrdom to that of the Christ from Nazareth: > [@Ralph Waldo Emerson](#): > > John Brown … The Saint, whose fate yet hangs in suspense, but whose martyrdom, if it shall be perfected, will make the gallows as glorious as the cross. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/69 "2019-09-26T13:39:17Z")
Brown attacked a US armory in[Harper’s Ferry.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)) Seven people were killed. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/70 "2019-09-26T14:06:07Z")
Now his body is a-moldering in the grave. I always loved that description. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/71 "2019-09-26T16:13:47Z")
In the past, I’ve been one of the people who favored moving on. I figured the important thing was getting the crook out of office - and if easing his path accomplished that, we should let him go without facing criminal charges. But I’ll admit I was wrong. I’ve seen that focusing on getting the current crook out of the White House is ignoring the next crook. We let Nixon and Reagan and Bush avoid facing criminal charges and all it did was lead to a worst crook getting elected next time. So no more. We need to impeach Donald Trump. We need to bring criminal charges against Donald Trump. We need to have a public trial for Donald Trump. And we need to put Donald Trump in prison for the crimes he has committed. We need to take the voters by the scruff of their neck and rub their faces in what they did. Because otherwise history will repeat itself and we’ll have a Republican President who’s somehow worse than Trump in office in ten years. We need to break this downward spiral. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/72 "2019-09-26T16:17:06Z")
The only thing Republicans learned from Nixon was to coverup better. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/73 "2019-09-26T16:48:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In the past, I’ve been one of the people who favored moving on. I figured the important thing was getting the crook out of office - and if easing his path accomplished that, we should let him go without facing criminal charges. > > But I’ll admit I was wrong. I’ve seen that focusing on getting the current crook out of the White House is ignoring the next crook. We let Nixon and Reagan and Bush avoid facing criminal charges and all it did was lead to a worst crook getting elected next time. > > So no more. We need to impeach Donald Trump. We need to bring criminal charges against Donald Trump. We need to have a public trial for Donald Trump. And we need to put Donald Trump in prison for the crimes he has committed. We need to take the voters by the scruff of their neck and rub their faces in what they did. > > Because otherwise history will repeat itself and we’ll have a Republican President who’s somehow worse than Trump in office in ten years. We need to break this downward spiral. We do need to break this downward spiral. Donald Trump is the perfect case for this. He is SO bad, and SO stupid, and SO corrupt that prosecuting him will be relatively easy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/74 "2019-09-26T16:51:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The only thing Republicans learned from Nixon was to coverup better. And to brazen it out. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/75 "2019-09-26T16:51:57Z")
Americans need to learn what should be an easy lesson. Voting matters. Stop voting on single issues. You are voting for the leader of your country. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/76 "2019-09-26T16:56:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And to brazen it out. Yep. Also: Never admit to anything Double down Cover up on the cover up Send out the attack dogs Accuse others of what you just did Use your pet media to spread your falsehoods Prevent voters from voting ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/77 "2019-09-26T17:11:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If you’ve heard of him at all, you’ve heard him called that. Him being called that is the reason why he’s even in the history books. I’ve heard of him a bunch, and never prior to this thread have I heard him called “the Martyr”. Also, like others have said, I’m pretty sure he’s in the history books for murdering people, not because of the name. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/78 "2019-09-26T17:18:17Z")
John Brown is in the history books because he was a white man who opposed slavery (a monstrous system of mass torture, violence, and rape of millions of men, women, and children) strongly enough that he felt violence was necessary to stop it. And he sacrificed his life for that cause. If it was morally acceptable for a slave to lash out against his or her slave master, or a slavery supporter acting to assist his or her enslavement, with violence, then it’s morally acceptable for a non-slave to lash out against a slave master (or slavery supporter as previous) with violence. Some things are so morally reprehensible that violence is morally acceptable in order to oppose them – slavery qualifies for that. Do you disagree, **HD**? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/79 "2019-09-26T17:38:21Z")
I think I’ve found the Republican talking point of the day: - Go to social media and find a topic about Trump, impeachment, Ukraine - Bring up an entirely unrelated topic (the national debt, historical figures, slavery, whatever) - Deflect the conversation into this new area. Don’t be afraid to bring up distracting topics over and over - Winning! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777/80 "2019-09-26T18:06:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > John Brown is in the history books because he was a white man who opposed slavery (a monstrous system of mass torture, violence, and rape of millions of men, women, and children) strongly enough that he felt violence was necessary to stop it. And he sacrificed his life for that cause. > > If it was morally acceptable for a slave to lash out against his or her slave master, or a slavery supporter acting to assist his or her enslavement, with violence, then it’s morally acceptable for a non-slave to lash out against a slave master (or slavery supporter as previous) with violence. Some things are so morally reprehensible that violence is morally acceptable in order to oppose them – slavery qualifies for that. > > Do you disagree, **HD**? Brown instigated / participated in the Pottawatomie massacre, in which him and his colleagues murdered five people in a single night. In his raid on Harpers Ferry, he and his men mostly murdered civilians, some of them African-Americans. It would be like trying to attack the White House, even perhaps with noble goals in mind, and only succeeding in killing the groundskeeper. I probably agree with the sentiment that “Some things are so morally reprehensible that violence is morally acceptable in order to oppose them”, but I don’t think that John Brown is the embodiment of that sentiment. His use of violence was misdirected / poorly executed, and he ended up doing much more harm than good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pardons-for-trump-and-his-cronies/840777.md?page=5)