# No poet, artist or composer in history has ever committed a calculated, first-degree murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 3, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813 "2018-01-03T19:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/22 "2018-01-03T21:23:55Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Charles Manson didn’t personally kill anyone. Neither, as far as I know, did Hitler. Well, apart from himself and possibly Eva Braun, that is, but I doubt those are the type of killings the OP is wondering about. Manson was actually something of a musician himself. The Beach Boys recorded an altered version of one of his songs, the writing of which was credited to Dennis Wilson. Manson was highly pissed and, IIRC, even threatened to shoot Dennis for having taken credit for it. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Learn_Not_to_Love) ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/23 "2018-01-03T21:28:27Z")
Academy award winning actor Gig Young killed his wife and then himself in 1978. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/24 "2018-01-03T21:36:14Z")
Alice Sheldon, who wrote science fiction as James Tiptree, Jr., shot her husband and herself to spare his suffering further when he was 84. It was certainly calculated. But a writer is not an poet, artist, or composer. So that doesn’t disprove the claim any more than an actor or photographer does. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/25 "2018-01-03T21:42:22Z")
I’m surprised to hear you say that. I certainly regard writers as artists (at least the kind who write stories, novels, screen plays, etc., as opposed to technical writing and so forth.) . Acting and certain kinds of photography are art as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/26 "2018-01-03T21:46:47Z")
It’s a rather silly statement – there’s so much ‘wiggle room’ that it’s pretty meaningless. First is Sage Rat’s note of the small sample fallacy. Even if you said “No Noble Prize winner …” you’d probably have to modify it to “No Noble Prize winning scientist …” to exclude the Peace Prize ones, some of whom are questionable. But beyond that, it would soon involve ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy. For example, I could say the Emperor Nero was a poet, but also killed a whole lot of people. You could argue that he wasn’t _really_ a poet. I could point out that he won some ancient poetry competitions. You could argue those competitions were fixed so that he would win. And so forth… Not a very meaningful quote. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/27 "2018-01-03T21:49:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m surprised to hear you say that. I certainly regard writers as artists (at least the kind who write stories, novels, screen plays, etc., as opposed to technical writing and so forth.) . Acting and certain kinds of photography are art as well. If the broad definition of “artist” was the one intended, then one wouldn’t need to include the words “poet” or “composer.” Because of this, I assume that “artist” in the OP refers to visual artists (painters and sculptors) only, and excludes writers, actors, etc. Likewise, “composer” excludes singers or musicians who do not compose their own works. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/28 "2018-01-03T21:50:15Z")
Interesting how these implausible blanket assertions essentially always have exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/29 "2018-01-03T21:51:42Z")
The charge was second-degree murder and he was acquitted, but at least worth noting that [Carl Andre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Andre), the minimalist sculptor, was tried in connection with the death of his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/30 "2018-01-03T21:52:02Z")
I am curious what the context of the book author’s statement was. What was the author trying to get at exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/31 "2018-01-03T21:57:52Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Charles Manson didn’t personally kill anyone. Well, he was never charged with or convicted of directly killing anyone. But (as Googling shows) a number of people - including Dennis Wilson of the _Beach Boys_ - said that he did, and others heard him claim to have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/32 "2018-01-03T21:58:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If the broad definition of “artist” was the one intended, then one wouldn’t need to include the words “poet” or “composer.” Because of this, I assume that “artist” in the OP refers to visual artists (painters and sculptors) only, and excludes writers, actors, etc. Likewise, “composer” excludes singers or musicians who do not compose their own works. Good point, and a good explanation for the surprising (to me) comment by **Exapno**. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/33 "2018-01-03T21:58:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Colin Wilson was a writer of science fiction and fantasy who occasionally dabbled in “real” world events…like ghosts, demons, the paranormal and sensationalized/lurid pieces of history. I would take his “facts” with a large grain of salt. Martin Gardner’s review of two Colin Wilson articles in _The Oxford Companion to the Mind_: > **[Paranormal Companionship | Martin Gardner](https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1989/02/16/paranormal-companionship/)** > > To the Editors: Israel Rosenfield's review of The Oxford Companion to the Mind is a splendid commentary on the book's articles about linguistics and the Mr. Wilson fires back…but Mr. Gardner gets the last word: > **[Ghosts & Poltergeists | Martin Gardner](https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1989/06/15/ghosts-poltergeists/)** > > To the Editors: I have just seen Martin Gardner's attack on my two articles in The Oxford Companion to the Mind, which, with his usual level of polemical “The former boy wonder, tall and handsome in his turtleneck sweater, has now decayed into one of those amiable eccentrics for which the land of Conan Doyle is noted. They prowl comically about the lunatic fringes of science, looking for ever more sensational wonders and scribbling ever more boring books about them for shameless publishers to feed to hungry readers as long as the boom in occultism lasts.” Poor Colin… ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/34 "2018-01-03T22:32:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I am curious what the context of the book author’s statement was. What was the author trying to get at exactly? Its part of the authors contention that the ‘left brain’ and ‘right brain’ are complementary but need to be balanced correctly to function as intended and much of the criminal acts in history are because people have been letting the logical left-brain take control. I could post a scan of the page and link to it from imgur if that’s allowed though I’m not sure how much more enlightening it would be. Its one of the weaker aspects of the book in my opinion but then again it was written in the late 1970’s, one other eye-brow raising part from a modern perspective is that the author casually assumes that the person reading his book is a man and not just in the use of pronouns. Thank you for the answers everyone 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/35 "2018-01-03T22:45:13Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Robert Blake was not convicted of murder, and the exact circumstances regarding who actually pulled the trigger on his wife is not known. (I don’t think murder is ever justified, but his wife was, frankly, a predator. Blake was also an idiot for getting sucked into her scam.) > > Charles Manson didn’t personally kill anyone. The OP said committed not convicted. Manson may have committed murder before the Sharon Tate murder. I can’t cite, but I recall a doc.show about it. And Spector; everyone knows he shot the chick in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/36 "2018-01-03T22:55:13Z")
I am an artist, on occasion I feel murderous. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/37 "2018-01-03T23:49:52Z")
The assertion is certainly wrong as many have stated, but it’s a nice example of a “no true Scotsman” proposition: “He wasn’t REALLY an artist…she didn’t REALLY calculate the murder…” and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/38 "2018-01-04T00:21:24Z")
Nobody has come up with a true counterexample. Carlo Gesualdo killed his wife and her lover when he found them in flagrante. Caravaggio was in a brawl. Gu Cheng killed two decades after the book came out. Other examples were not poets, artists, or composers. I have trouble believing that the claim is true, especially since I’m sure Wilson couldn’t be familiar with all the world’s cultures. But he stated it narrowly and sensibly. What’s happened since is the usual thread drift, in which people totally ignore the OP and post anything that has some words in common. That’s not argument; it’s bar trivia. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/39 "2018-01-04T00:37:06Z")
didn’t Emperor Nero write plays and songs? And star in the plays. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/40 "2018-01-04T01:06:31Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > didn’t Emperor Nero write plays and songs? And star in the plays. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The assertion might be more interesting if limited to people who actually made a living as painters (or composers or poets). In other words, eliminating murderers who dabbled in the arts as a hobby. > > Did Hitler ever manage to support himself via his paintings? I don’t recall. > > For that matter, certainly he was a genocidal dictator, but did he ever personally commit murder? I’d exclude Nero on **Tom Tildrum’s** grounds. He dabbled in the arts, but wasn’t an artist by profession. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813/41 "2018-01-04T01:11:37Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > The assertion is certainly wrong as many have stated, but it’s a nice example of a “no true Scotsman” proposition: “He wasn’t REALLY an artist…she didn’t REALLY calculate the murder…” and so on. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Nobody has come up with a true counterexample. Carlo Gesualdo killed his wife and her lover when he found them in flagrante. Caravaggio was in a brawl. Gu Cheng killed two decades after the book came out. Other examples were not poets, artists, or composers. > > I have trouble believing that the claim is true, especially since I’m sure Wilson couldn’t be familiar with all the world’s cultures. But he stated it narrowly and sensibly. I refer you to: > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The “wiggle room” is rather interesting, because fundamentally very few people kill in a calculated way. They might calculate _after_ the event to obscure the evidence, but often the murder itself is a spur-of-the-moment act of passion, rage, and/or mania. I share with **Sage Rat** the feeling that when it comes down to it, the vast majority of killings is not the classic “premeditation, malice aforethought and special circumstances” that we think of when we say Murder One. Heck, I would not be surprised if \*a lot \*of the actual prosecutions for Murder One in a place like the USA are only at that degree due to a statutory provision for “special circumstance” to mandatorily ratchet up the charge (killing a Law Enforcement Officer; Terrorist threat; use of poisons; Felony Murder Rule; ambush; etc). So it turns out that creative artists who murder, like the majority of those people who do murder, do so “in the heat” or while “not in their sound mind”, rather than plotting it in cold blood. That’s not news and provides me little useful information. ISTM that would be about as significant as saying it’s unknown for a fine auteur to rob the First National Bank at gunpoint … when hardly \*anyone \*ever robs the First National Bank at gunpoint. Tells me jack about how having a creative artist’s brain affects your criminal inclinations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-poet-artist-or-composer-in-history-has-ever-committed-a-calculated-first-degree-murder/805813.md?page=3)