# No "Pound Me In The Ass Prison" for Scooter
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [July 2, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281 "2007-07-02T22:13:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/121 "2007-07-04T04:08:28Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
I’m sure you’ll be pleased to hear that Rep. John Conyers has scheduled hearings next week on the Use and Misuse of Presidential Clemency Power.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not pleased. Presidential Clemency Power is neither reveiwable or alterable.
I’d much prefer that Conyers, et al, review that which is not explicitly granted to the President by the Constitution.
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### Author:  [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/122 "2007-07-04T04:08:49Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ]
But Scooter still has to pay the fine!
Of course, it’ll take him about fifteen minutes to make that in the cushy Wingnut Welfare job he almost certainly has waiting for him.
[/QUOTE]
As if it’s going to actually come out of his pocket.
Bob
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/123 "2007-07-04T04:15:09Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
…I’m sure you’ll be pleased to hear that Rep. John Conyers has scheduled hearings next week on the Use and Misuse of Presidential Clemency Power. …
[/QUOTE]
Well, IMO that is a huge waste of time. The president has pretty much absolute power in this area; I’m not quite sure he _can_ abuse it.
There are so many more investigations that need to be done, and charges that need to be filed, that this little pissant thing is just a distraction.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/124 "2007-07-04T04:19:15Z")
IIRC, his legal defense fund had something like 5 megabucks, so his fine amounts to about about a twentieth thereof. You can contribute here…
[https://www.donationreport.com/init/controller/ProcessEntryCmd?key=J8Z6U5L3L1](https://www.donationreport.com/init/controller/ProcessEntryCmd?key=J8Z6U5L3L1)
Or not.
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### Author:  [@alreadymichigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alreadymichigan)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/125 "2007-07-04T05:12:39Z")
[QUOTE=straight man]
All right, I’ll try to explain this, and note, it has nothing to do with Scooter Libby.
A number of members of the administration committed a very serious crime – namely, leaking Plame’s CIA status. Had the guilty members been prosecuted, the administration would be hurting pretty badly. As it was, Libby took the bullet; he committed perjury for the sake of his associates and his boss, got prosecuted for it, and was convicted.
If you’re Cheney\*, then a member of your staff is going to jail for covering for a crime that you authorized. Of course, you’re not about to commit hari-kiri, but you can probably see that it is unfair (albeit not unjust.) Hence, you push to have his punishment minimized, even when it makes you look a bit worse.
If you’re Bush\*, then, as the head of the executive branch (and thus the penitentiary system), you are in a position where you will punish someone for helping you, and again, for covering for a crime that you personally authorized. You have the legal ability to avoid your job as spanker-in-chief; it is only decent to take it.
That said, I really would have liked to see Libby go to jail. I just have a hard time blaming President Bush for commuting Libby’s sentence. It’s enough to blame him for the original crime.
[/QUOTE]
Excuse my idealism, but I think there are about 300 million other people Bush owes his loyalty to before Scooter Libby. Yes, ha ha, I’m expecting decency from a member of this administration. But the best way to get incompetent, corrupt and badly behaved leaders is for the citizenry to expect only corruptability, incompetence and bad behavior from its leaders. You may think it was “decent” for Bush to stand by his fall guy. But this was a choice between standing by his fall guy and standing by the justice system of the nation he serves. His choice was nothing but _indecent_. “B-but… it’s ok because it was cronyism!” doesn’t wash as any kind of excuse.
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### Author:  [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/126 "2007-07-04T07:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=alreadymichigan]
Excuse my idealism, but I think there are about 300 million other people Bush owes his loyalty to before Scooter Libby.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, before I address anything else, do you actually wish to imply that Scooter Libby is not a citizen of the United States?Read your sentence again. You’ll get it.
[QUOTE=alreadymichigan]
Yes, ha ha, I’m expecting decency from a member of this administration. But the best way to get incompetent, corrupt and badly behaved leaders is for the citizenry to expect only corruptability, incompetence and bad behavior from its leaders. You may think it was “decent” for Bush to stand by his fall guy. But this was a choice between standing by his fall guy and standing by the justice system of the nation he serves. His choice was nothing but _indecent_. “B-but… it’s ok because it was cronyism!” doesn’t wash as any kind of excuse.
[/QUOTE]
The justice system of your nation includes the absolute power to pardon or commute sentences for any reason whatsoever. Maybe you could get after Bush for, you know, authorizing the leak (as alleged by Patrick Fitzgerald), or for shoving forward a sacrificial lamb (though it’s impossible to know for sure how Libby was given his unenviable position). Instead you’re getting after Bush _for helping out a friend and an underling in an entirely legal fashion, a friend who took a fall for him. What do you think he should do in this situation, let Libby pay for a much larger crime?_
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/127 "2007-07-04T11:01:17Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
No, you have established what is true–that Scooter did not receive an e-mail from Joe Schmoe on the 15th. Now that you know that, what can you conclude from it, without the aid of your spider-sense?
[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure that I can conclude that Scooter actively tried to hinder my investigation by lying about when and where he got certain information, so I can pursue charges against him.
You seem to think that this revelation means that the prosecutor should pursue “real” charges against the “real” criminals.
> [@](#):
>
> Now that we know what he did by way of obstruction, when will we see the cogs of justice start turning again? Nothing stopping us now, right?
It doesn’t work that way, proving that someone lied does not necessarily point you towards knowing the truth about who committed what crime. You may only be able to prove they lied about a tangential issue anyway, where the serious lies remain unproven because information is limited.
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### Author:  [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/128 "2007-07-04T11:32:58Z")
Holy unintended consequences, Batman! It seems that by casting Scooter’s scoot as a reaction to an unreasonable sentence rather than an obvious act of cronyism, [Bush has thrown a giant bone to defense lawyers everywhere](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/washington/04commute.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1183548374-G/jEEiPWluKO3UhAJJxvgQ):
> [@](#):
>
> “By saying that the sentence was excessive, I wonder if he understood the ramifications of saying that,” said Ellen S. Podgor, who teaches criminal law at Stetson University in St. Petersburg, Fla. “This is opening up a can of worms about federal sentencing.”
>
> The Libby clemency will be the basis for many legal arguments, said Susan James, an Alabama lawyer representing Don E. Siegelman, the state’s former governor, who is appealing a sentence he received last week of 88 months for obstruction of justice and other offenses.
>
> **“It’s far more important than if he’d just pardoned Libby,”** Ms. James said, as forgiving a given offense as an act of executive grace would have had only political repercussions. “What you’re going to see is people like me quoting President Bush in every pleading that comes across every federal judge’s desk.”
>
> Indeed, Mr. Bush’s decision may have given birth to a new sort of legal document.
>
> **“I anticipate that we’re going to get a new motion called ‘the Libby motion,’** ” Professor Podgor said. “It will basically say, ‘My client should have got what Libby got, and here’s why.’ ”
(Bolding mine.)
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/129 "2007-07-04T11:36:22Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
I concede. I can’t argue with someone who can read the minds of 12 people from afar.
[/QUOTE]
Very glib, but did you actually read the reaction after the case? [Here, I’ll help you:](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17485067/)
> [@](#):
>
> “It was said a number of times: ‘What are we doing with this guy here? Where’s Rove? Where are these other guys?’ ” Collins said, referring to Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove, who was identified during the investigation as one of the senior officials who revealed the identity of the operative, Valerie Plame, to journalists.
>
> “I’m not saying we didn’t think Mr. Libby was guilty of the things we found him guilty of,” Collins said. “It seemed like he was, as Mr. Wells [Ted Wells, Libby’s attorney] put it, he was the fall guy.”
Fitzgerald is a skilled prosecutor apparently, who was admittedly doing his job. As he saw it, it was to play to the sympathies the jury would have for the fall guy for the evil administration. And he did. If you find this speculative, so be it.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/130 "2007-07-04T11:44:15Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
Pick a time frame you’re interested in, and stick with it. Switching from the future to the past like that in an attempt to score points just makes you look like a moron.
Fitzgerald was appointed by Comey in 2003. Gonzo had nothing to do with it.
[/quote]
Then why did you introduce Gonzo as a reason that charges are not being brought? Don’t get pissy when someone reacts to the specific point you introduced. See what I mean? Just doing my part to help you not look like a moron. No need to thank me.
> [@](#):
>
> Regarding the _future_, which is what you originally asked about. These things take _time_.
> I’m sure you’ll be pleased to hear that Rep. John Conyers has scheduled hearings next week on the Use and Misuse of Presidential Clemency Power. This is likely just the start, and other committees will also take up their oversight duties; maybe even prod Justice to take care of its responsibilities in the Plame case.
What the f@#$ does this have to do with why there were no criminal charges that resulted from the Fitzgerald investigation or as an outcome of the Libby conviction? What was stopping Fitzgerald from leveling any charge he wanted to? Why would this series of actions “prod” the Justice Department, when no such prodding was necessary by virtue of the existence of a Special Prosecutor. You have introduced this fact as evidence of…what, again? Makes no sense.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/131 "2007-07-04T11:45:10Z")
All this fuss over a simple prisoner exchange.
Hamas released Alan Johnston, who was an enemy of Palestine, so in the spirit of reciprocity, Bush released Scooter Libby, who was an an enemy of the USA.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/132 "2007-07-04T11:46:52Z")
**strat** : Yes, it’s speculative, to the point of imaginary. You’re starting from the point of view that Cheney and Rove were innocent of any wrongdoing, therefore any impression that all 12 jurors might have had to the contrary was entirely the doing of a politically-motivated (cte, btw) prosecutor, amazingly successful at hypnotizing every one of them. And, for that matter, that Libby’s own attorney was utterly helpless to break the spell Fitzie was weaviing for them with his magic powers, and the judge too was so clouded by the spell that he did nothing to limit it.
Amazing powers that man has, aren’t they? If only he’d devote them exclusively to the cause of Good. :rolleyes:
Or, maybe they’re all humans who could hear, see, and think for themselves.
> [@](#):
>
> =What was stopping Fitzgerald from leveling any charge he wanted to?
_Admissible_ evidence. What, is your view of a special prosecutor’s function defined by Starr, not by ones with ethics?
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/133 "2007-07-04T11:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
I’m pretty sure that I can conclude that Scooter actively tried to hinder my investigation by lying about when and where he got certain information, so I can pursue charges against him.
[/quote]
Yes, that’s a reasonable conclusion.
> [@](#):
>
> You seem to think that this revelation means that the prosecutor should pursue “real” charges against the “real” criminals.
Are you reading the same thread? I’m reacting to people who suppose just such a thing ought to occur, and they point to this conviction as proof of something it is not.
> [@](#):
>
> It doesn’t work that way, proving that someone lied does not necessarily point you towards knowing the truth about who committed what crime. You may only be able to prove they lied about a tangential issue anyway, where the serious lies remain unproven because information is limited.
Yes, exactly. Then you’re right back where you started. If you can prove a case, do it. If not, then we’re all speculating about what currently unknowable thing did or didn’t occur. But this conviction did not ultimately prove anything other than Libby lied and what was “true” as it relates to the specific statements that constituted the perjury. Period.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/134 "2007-07-04T12:00:08Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
**strat** : Yes, it’s speculative, to the point of imaginary. You’re starting from the point of view that Cheney and Rove were innocent of any wrongdoing, therefore any impression that all 12 jurors might have had to the contrary was entirely the doing of a politically-motivated (cte, btw) prosecutor, amazingly successful at hypnotizing every one of them. And, for that matter, that Libby’s own attorney was utterly helpless to break the spell Fitzie was weaviing for them with his magic powers, and the judge too was so clouded by the spell that he did nothing to limit it.
Amazing powers that man has, aren’t they? If only he’d devote them exclusively to the cause of Good. :rolleyes:
[/quote]
Sheesh. As I stated in this very thread, Fitzgerald was doing his job. I don’t fault him for that. I didn’t say he hypnotized anyone. I said he conducted his prosecution of these particular charges with skill, and his own words indicated that part of his strategy was to play to the notion that there was this evil cloud over the administration, and that Libby was just the tip of the iceberg. Trial attorneys do this all the time, right? I’m not suggesting he did anything wrong or that the jury didn’t think with clear minds that he presented the best case. So if there’s anything purely from the realm of imagination being posted here, I don’t think I’m the one doing it.
> [@](#):
>
> Or, maybe they’re all humans who could hear, see, and think for themselves.
> _Admissible_ evidence. What, is your view of a special prosecutor’s function defined by Starr, not by ones with ethics?
I’m not a fan of the special prosecutor function at all. It seems designed to create the sort of dysfunction this investigation did–and Starr’s was just as bad. I was angered at the outcome of that investigation to the point where I switched parties, in case you think I have a specific axe to grind here (which clearly you do).
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/135 "2007-07-04T13:30:07Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
…part of his strategy was to play to the notion that there was this evil cloud over the administration, and that Libby was just the tip of the iceberg.
[/quote]
And that does indeed mean you discount the possibility that he was actually presenting facts, not just “playing to a notion”. Come on now. I’m merely holding your fantasy up to the light here. :rolleyes:
[quote]
I’m not a fan of the special prosecutor function at all. It seems designed to create the sort of dysfunction this investigation did[/qjote]What dysfunction was that? Its inability to find a legal way to get admissible evidence against the real perpetrators of the crime, due to Libby’s taking the fall? No prosecutor can do that.
> [@](#):
>
> Starr’s was just as bad.
Fitzgerald’s was as bad as Starr’s _how_? :dubious: Do you have anything beyond the traditional “Yeah, well, \*Clinton \* …” defense here?
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/136 "2007-07-04T13:34:15Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Then why did you introduce Gonzo as a reason that charges are not being brought?
[/QUOTE]
Because Gonzales is _currently_ attorney general.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/137 "2007-07-04T13:51:23Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
And that does indeed mean you discount the possibility that he was actually presenting facts, not just “playing to a notion”. Come on now. I’m merely holding your fantasy up to the light here. :rolleyes:
[/quote]
Are you for real? Then why didn’t his “facts” lead to a single conviction of what he was investigating? Hell, how about a single charge? Do you think if you say something enough times or with enough rolleyes it takes on an aura or truth?
> [@](#):
>
> What dysfunction was that? Its inability to find a legal way to get admissible evidence against the real perpetrators of the crime, due to Libby’s taking the fall? No prosecutor can do that.
No, the same sort of dysfunction as Starr’s where millions of dollars and immeasurable time and energy is dedicated to getting to the bottom of something and nothing is ever proven. Where these meta-charges are the only things that stick to the wall–“Well, maybe we can’t prove you did anything criminal, but we’ll charge with improper conduct within our fruitless investigation.”
That’s not to excuse perjury. That’s to say these investigations almost invariably turn into pointless clusterf@#$s. As Starr’s did. And as Fitzgerald’s did.
> [@](#):
>
> Fitzgerald’s was as bad as Starr’s _how_? :dubious: Do you have anything beyond the traditional “Yeah, well, \*Clinton \* …” defense here?
You keep propping up your straw men. Seems to make you happy. Despite my specific statement that I thought Starr’s investigation was outrageous, you clearly feel more comfortable attacking a position I have specifically disavowed. Have fun.
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/138 "2007-07-04T13:54:52Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Very glib, but did you actually read the reaction after the case? [Here, I’ll help you:](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17485067/)Fitzgerald is a skilled prosecutor apparently, who was admittedly doing his job. As he saw it, it was to play to the sympathies the jury would have for the fall guy for the evil administration. And he did. If you find this speculative, so be it.
[/QUOTE]
Glib? What I call glib is dismissing the jury as predisposed to convict, the rulings of a judge who followed the sentencing guidelines, and a three judge panel (two appointed by Republicans) of an appeals court who ruled that Libby was unlikely to prevail on appeal.
All your above cite says with regard to Libby is that he was was guilty of two crimes, perjury and obstruction of justice. The quoted juror merely asked how come there weren’t others also on trial. One reason was because Libby lied and obfuscated and so helped them, whoever they were, escape punishment.
So he was “set up to be a fall guy.” Well, that’s what happens to a fall guy, he takes a fall. Did Fitzgerald set him up? The Judge? If you really think he was set up why blame Fitzgeral, the judge and the jury? Don’t those who supposedly set him up come in for a little blame?
Your whole presentation here is merely a repetition of the tired crap coming out of the administration.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/139 "2007-07-04T13:55:35Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
Because Gonzales is _currently_ attorney general.
[/QUOTE]
As he was when Fitzgerald’s investigation concluded. When Libby was charged. You remember Fitzgerald, right? The Special Prosecutor who was empowered to bring whatever charges he thought fit to the Grand Jury, whether Gonzo liked it or not. So, again what _is_ your point?
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison-for-scooter/410281/140 "2007-07-04T14:04:58Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
Glib? What I call glib is dismissing the jury as predisposed to convict, the rulings of a judge who followed the sentencing guidelines, and a three judge panel (two appointed by Republicans) of an appeals court who ruled that Libby was unlikely to prevail on appeal.
All your above cite says with regard to Libby is that he was was guilty of two crimes, perjury and obstruction of justice. The quoted juror merely asked how come there weren’t others also on trial. One reason was because Libby lied and obfuscated and so helped them, whoever they were, escape punishment.
So he was “set up to be a fall guy.” Well, that’s what happens to a fall guy, he takes a fall. Did Fitzgerald set him up? The Judge? If you really think he was set up why blame Fitzgeral, the judge and the jury? Don’t those who supposedly set him up come in for a little blame?
Your whole presentation here is merely a repetition of the tired crap coming out of the administration.
[/QUOTE]
The straw men continue. You’re picking nits.
Fitzgerald’s own words in the trial suggest that he believed the jury could be swayed, at least in part, by an argument that Libby–while fully guilty–was also the scapegoat for a corrupt administration. Do I _know_ he believed this? No, only he does. But I know what he said.
The jury not only responded with a guilty verdict, but provided rhetoric afterward showing they they bought into this line of argument.
I’m not arguing Libby was a fall guy. The attorneys did and the jury was inclined to believe it. Before you spout _your_ tired crap, what of these statements seems illogical to you?
> [@](#):
>
> One reason was because Libby lied and obfuscated and so helped them, whoever they were, escape punishment.
Okay, again the baseless claim. Show the evidence that demonstrates this is so. Not the details that lead you to think it’s possible. Help us out by playing out the syllogism that maps a “he’s protecting the administration from being charged with something criminal” conclusion to the specific facts established in the case. I’ll wait. And let me again give you a hint–if that could be done with any sort of reasonable certainty, charges would have been brought. And (I may have mentioned this before) they were not. Not a single one.
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