# No powerlines in Europe? Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 4, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821 "2011-11-04T04:34:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/61 "2011-11-10T05:09:11Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > I guess that having an an unclear idea of something like that was my motivation for asking **GusNSpot** for a cite for the claim that underground power lines are so much more expensive in the US than in Europe. And, by the way, I’m still waiting for that cite… Look at a map. Just start at the distribution center or sub-station. Now look at the Number of users per running mile of underground cable. ( you can assume the cost per foot or mile will average out the same for each country in regards to ground type. ) To get to each user requires more underground cable. We can’t even keep our roads up and you all think we should start an underground electrical grid? Who is gonna pay for it? Oh, more taxes… right? Higher prices on homes? … How is that working for us? Lies Damn lies & statistics. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/62 "2011-11-10T07:31:13Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Look at a map. No, that doesn’t count as a cite. I was thinking of something like, you know, real numbers, you know, for grid\* costs. You know, dollars, Euros or some other freely convertible currency. - Local grid, not long-distance high-voltage distribution. As has been mentioned a couple of times, we do the latter overhead also here in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/63 "2011-11-10T07:36:27Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I think this thread may be giving a misleading impression, by failing to distinguish between distribution networks and transmission networks. > > It is very, very unusual anywhere in the world for high-voltage transmission lines to be run underground. The exceptions are cases like undersea interconnectors and some short-distance links in urban areas. > > Apart from these exceptions, transmission lines are run overhead on pylons in Europe, just as they are in the USA. But the article quoted in the OP talked about “black power lines in cities”, obviously referring to local power distribution, and not high-voltage lines. (And I did also mention the difference in my post …) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/64 "2011-11-10T09:56:09Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Look at a map. > Just start at the distribution center or sub-station. > Now look at the Number of users per running mile of underground cable. ( you can assume the cost per foot or mile will average out the same for each country in regards to ground type. ) > > To get to each user requires more underground cable. > > We can’t even keep our roads up and you all think we should start an underground electrical grid? Who is gonna pay for it? > > Oh, more taxes… right? Higher prices on homes? … How is that working for us? > > Lies > Damn lies > & statistics. 😛 How about CL&P actually PAY for maintenance out of the money they get from us for electrical service? [http://blogs.reuters.com/breakingviews/2011/11/03/less-not-more-better-for-new-england-utilities/](http://blogs.reuters.com/breakingviews/2011/11/03/less-not-more-better-for-new-england-utilities/) > [@](#): > > Yet according to regulatory filings, CL&P slashed its maintenance spending by a whopping 26 percent from $130 million in 2008 to just $96.5 million last year. Did I mention they paid out 48 675 000 to their shareholders? [[.275 to the owners of 177 000 000 shares.]]([http://nuwnotes1.nu.com/apps/corporatecommunications/empinfo.nsf/0/959FD3DCA69B524985257922006B9198?OpenDocument](http://nuwnotes1.nu.com/apps/corporatecommunications/empinfo.nsf/0/959FD3DCA69B524985257922006B9198?OpenDocument)) Shouldn’t there be a responsibility to actually maintain their property? I can guarantee that _my_ electric bill per KWH did not go down since 2008. I can state that for the tail end of the hurricane, we had our town DPW sitting on their ass for almost the entire week waiting for someone from the electric company to be arsed to show up and flick some breakers to turn power off in downed lines so they could remove trees. For the blizzard, we chatted up the crew that came to our house and discovered for eastern CT they had all of 5 2 man work crews on for eastern CT. I have noticed more and more power outages in the past 10 years, it is bad enough we are considering changing from our portable generator to an installed Generac that will automatically change over when the power to the house goes down so we will no longer have to deal with wondering when the hell our power will be back and running out in the middle of the night, or out in a storm/snow to refill and restart the generator just to keep our food from rotting in the freezer and sitting in the dark. I will admit I like heating with the wood stove though - I make a killer pot of chili on the top. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/65 "2011-11-10T21:37:55Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > But the article quoted in the OP talked about “black power lines in cities”, obviously referring to local power distribution, and not high-voltage lines. (And I did also mention the difference in my post …) Yes, I see that you and others noted the difference between the two. I thought that this thread risked creating the false impression that transmission lines in Europe are commonly run underground (even if the posters themselves are well-informed), but I may have been mistaken. In any event, if I were not myself working in the electricity business, I can’t say for sure that I would be aware of the differences between transmission and distribution, between TSOs, network operators and suppliers, so I wouldn’t criticise anyone else who was unclear about these distinctions. Not that any such confusion has been evident in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/66 "2011-11-11T02:21:38Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Interesting. This is the ideal way to do this, but it also proves the magnitude of the process and why it is not happening more often. Is the goal really “the turn of the century”? That’s a 100-year timeline. How many people living in San Diego today would take 2100 as reasonable for their neighborhood? Is it realistic for any company to plan for such a distant goal? What happens when populations shifts need to be accounted for or budget cuts have to be made? San Diego is growing and prosperous today, but that’s where the Rust Belt was 100 years ago. Their utilities are stretched to the limit without adding any extra services. Good as this sounds, it’s not a real answer nationally. I don’t know about the goal so much as the paper work I received had the area left to convert and the amount that is being converted per year and I did the math. The first I heard about the program to put the utilities underground was when I received in the mail the paper work that they were going to start doing this in my neighborhood. I would say the vast majority of people in San Diego living in neighborhoods with above ground utilities are unaware of the program. ---
**Author:** ![srk1949](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@srk1949](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srk1949)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/67 "2016-08-13T08:37:42Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > Power lines _from substations to houses_ (i.e. 230 V AC = 400 V 3-phase AC) are underground in most German towns/villages - municipialities either own the utility or award a license to use the streets for lines, so they have a lot of leverage to make the utility bury the lines. Underground lines seem the rule also in those Western neighbour countries of Germany that I am familiar with. I think power lines in the US are not only run overland rather than underground because of the cost factor. How much do you think it costs each year for repairs to these lines, not to mention the power outages that people are constantly having to endure. Also the US is still using the almost obsolete 110v 60 cycle lines. The infrastructure in the US is third world at best. I’ve lived in Germany for 44 years now which BTW do not have overland power lines except maybe a few outlaying small areas. In that time I have never experienced a power outage other than maybe a few times ( like 2 times) for a couple of hours due to upgrades or maintenance which were announced before the work was to be done. People in the US can’t say that. Time to wake up America. ---
**Author:** ![srk1949](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@srk1949](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srk1949)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/68 "2016-08-13T08:42:54Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > No. Many European cities are incredibly densely populated, so the lines may be hidden underground, but Europe is not all urban sprawl. There are power lines to and from other cities/towns. > > —Insert non-GQ snark about San Franciscans and their opinions and faux-cosmopolitanism because they’ve been to Amsterdam once. What does being densely populated have to do with running lines underground? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/69 "2016-08-13T08:51:54Z")
> [@srk1949](#): > > What does being densely populated have to do with running lines underground? The denser the population, the less it costs _per person_ to run lines underground. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/70 "2016-08-13T08:53:51Z")
> [@srk1949](#): > > Also the US is still using the almost obsolete 110v 60 cycle lines. What is it about 60Hz 120v (not 110) that makes it “almost obsolete?” ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/71 "2016-08-13T09:01:33Z")
> [@srk1949](#): > > I think power lines in the US are not only run overland rather than underground because of the cost factor. How much do you think it costs each year for repairs to these lines, not to mention the power outages that people are constantly having to endure. Also the US is still using the almost obsolete 110v 60 cycle lines. The infrastructure in the US is third world at best. I’ve lived in Germany for 44 years now which BTW do not have overland power lines except maybe a few outlaying small areas. In that time I have never experienced a power outage other than maybe a few times ( like 2 times) for a couple of hours due to upgrades or maintenance which were announced before the work was to be done. People in the US can’t say that. Time to wake up America. Anyone who thinks US infrastructure is Third World has never actually lived in the Third World. ---
**Author:** ![Fridgemagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/22d042/32.png) [@Fridgemagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fridgemagnet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/72 "2016-08-13T09:39:48Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I think this thread may be giving a misleading impression, by failing to distinguish between distribution networks and transmission networks. > > It is very, very unusual anywhere in the world for high-voltage transmission lines to be run underground. The exceptions are cases like undersea interconnectors and some short-distance links in urban areas. > > Apart from these exceptions, transmission lines are run overhead on pylons in Europe, just as they are in the USA. There’s a very good technical reason why high tension AC power lines are generally not run underground - it creates a large capacitance between the line and ground/earth, which shunts away power and massively reduces the efficiency of the transmission network. In situations where this is unavoidable - such as the [grid link between England and France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel) - the AC is converted to DC before the underground line, and then converted back to AC again at the other end. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/73 "2016-08-13T11:01:33Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > good one Dog80. > > that was in Norfolk and doesn’t exist anymore. Norfolk doesn’t exist?? Why was this not reported? Did Sizewell blow up and the guvmint suppressed the news\> What about Suffolk? To the OP’s question: You don’t see those ugly ples trailing power cables in towns (you do see telephone cables though). In the countryside, the cost of burying the cables would be too great so yes, you do see them marching across fields. They are the ones that fail in severe storms or very cold weather and people who live at the end of them will usually have alternative heating or generators for emergencies. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/74 "2016-08-13T13:26:29Z")
As others have said, power lines are basically a big no. I’ve lived in small town England, Birmingham, London and Stockholm. None of them had power cables everywhere. The only exception is telephone cables. For one reason or another, they still exist. I was recently in the US and was genuinely amazed by the amount of cables everywhere and how generally unsafe it all looked. I know it isn’t, there aren’t masses of people dying all the time due to unsafe wiring, but my reaction shows how _unusual_ I found it all. In other news, last weekend I took this photo from a balcony in downtown Stockholm. The area is clearly built up, the buildings are about a hundred years old and there’s nothing like the cabling I saw in the US: [https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2346328/cables.jpg](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2346328/cables.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/75 "2016-08-13T14:03:20Z")
Like [this](http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/24/37/44/5372200/3/rawImage.jpg) you mean ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/76 "2016-08-13T17:41:24Z")
> [@Anachronism](#): > > Out of curiosity what would something like this cost including installation(including a generator)? Just a ballpark figure say for a system that could handle essentials (IE furnace, fridge and a couple lights) and a system that could handle the whole house (doesn’t seem like it would be that much more). I tried a google search but I really don’t have any idea what I am looking for. > > Right now I am in a good sized city and power outages of more than an hour are extremely rare. I do have friends out of the city who have lost power for a few days after bad storms. If I buy a house outside the city I would most likely buy a generator and consider one of these transfer switches too. Edit - now that I think about it, I have two friends who live in the same city as me who have lost power for days after separate bad storms. Probably 10% of the city was without power both times. One storm was a week ago and the other was a about 4 years ago. > > Many of the houses around here have sump pumps (to keep groundwater out of the basement), if there is a power failure that becomes an issue for many people. > > I know a handful of people who own generators but I do not know anyone who has one wired directly into their home electrical system. My son in Seattle has a gas generator with such a transfer switch that cost him about $10K. He also has to run it for a while every couple months. The neighbors don’t like that, but they like it better when he invites them in during power failures. The place that does this the best is Paris. Long long ago, they installed underground tubes that came to hold water, sewer, electricity, fiber optic cable and, once upon a time, a system of pneumatic tubes. The tubes are large enough to permit access for maintenance so the constant street digging that you see in Montreal for one aren’t needed. But all urban environments I am aware in Europe are festooned with overhead wires for trams and trolleybuses. Not only don’t I find them ugly, they tell me where I can find public transit. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/77 "2016-08-13T18:35:02Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > [https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2346328/cables.jpg](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2346328/cables.jpg) I’m guessing Stockholm is well cabled up? The lack of TV aerials and sat dishes I mean. ---
**Author:** ![bubba001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f17d59/32.png) [@bubba001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba001)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/78 "2016-08-13T23:32:28Z")
In my area of Michigan, new developments are required to have underground utilities. Older homes like mine will probably be served by overhead lines for a very long time. I have a whole house generator with a transfer switch. I’ve needed it - we have lost power for as long as a week at a time. 2013 was a bad year, I lost power for 14 days that year, 7 days at one stretch. Not having power out here means no water, no flushing toilets, no showers, no heat or lights. The only drawback is a generator large enough to run your home is pretty greedy of fuel. 2 gallons plus per hour, and if you are on propane, that can mean $7 to 10 per hour. During the winter of 2013, we had ice storms that took out the electric lines, then temps down to -15F. Folks without generators had their houses froze up. I know it convinced a couple of my neighbor’s to move to Florida:cool: ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/79 "2016-08-14T03:09:40Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The place that does this the best is Paris. Long long ago, they installed underground tubes that came to hold water, sewer, electricity, fiber optic cable and, once upon a time, a system of pneumatic tubes. The tubes are large enough to permit access for maintenance so the constant street digging that you see in Montreal for one aren’t needed. Some older US cities (like New York City) and older, downtown parts of other cities have this. There were many other cities planning to install such ‘utility tunnels’ back when the number of utilities increased suddenly, what with cable TV, internet, alternative phone companies, etc., and to gradually move existing utilities into them underground. These tunnels save money because repair is much easier & faster, as is upgrading utilities. It’s also better for the city, because they aren’t constantly digging up the roads, causing traffic detours & congestion, and eventual patching of the street (which wears out faster). Alas, the utilities used their lobbyists to get the US Congress to pass a law with a little provision hidden in it that prohibits cities from rental fees for use of these tunnels. Which pretty much removed the incentive for cities to build them (or even do maintenance on existing ones). So new utility lines in the US are added overhead on poles thru alleys, rather than underground, because that’s much cheaper. (Also, it keeps out competition – having to put up an overhead network on poles thru alleys is much harder than just running it thru a municipal utility tunnel.) Completely new developments often do utilities underground, but each company runs their own underground lines, with no common trenches or coordination with the others. Often cutting each others’ buried lines in the process. So the plethora of overhead lines in the US is large & growing, because of a corrupt provision hidden in a law passed 30-some years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821/80 "2016-08-14T03:17:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > All it means is that it is expensive to bury power lines, so it is only done of necessity. Very expensive. Very, very expensive. The estimates for burying them in the U.S. are in the multiple trillions. And buried power lines cost way more to maintain because you have to a) figure out where the problem is and b) dig up something major of concrete or asphalt to get to them and c) rebury it all again. There’s also the fact that buried power lines have a greater transmission loss than overhead lines. (Someone with more electrical engineering than me will have to explain why.) And this loss continues for the entire lifetime of the buried line. With much of the electrical grid overburdened by increased demand, with constant exhortations for consumers to save electricity by things like replacing incandescent bulbs, the additional loss of buried power lines could be significant in many places. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-powerlines-in-europe-really/601821.md?page=5)