# No Sensation of Falling 38K Feet in 3.5 Minutes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499 "2011-05-27T22:52:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/121 "2011-06-04T20:42:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Pitch down = nose down. Thank you for this and for fighting my ignorance regarding Captain, co-pilot, etc. I really did not intend to portray the PF as incompetent. I trust my life regularly to the competency of airline pilots. I know this is guesswork and Monday morning quarterbacking at best and that really speculation should perhaps be withheld, but I can’t help being curious what if any significance these two statements have. > [@](#): > > From 2 h 10 min 50, the PNF tried several times to call the Captain back. > [@](#): > > At 2 h 13 min 32, the PF said “we’re going to arrive at level one hundred”. About fifteen seconds > later, simultaneous inputs by both pilots on the sidesticks were recorded and the PF said “go > ahead you have the controls”. Is it standard procedure to call the Captain back to the flight deck in such a situation? Given Broomsticks very sensible explanation of why it is unlikely the Captain took the controls. The last statement makes even less sense to me. Why would the PF turn the controls over to the PNF at that point, some 41 seconds before impact? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/122 "2011-06-04T21:33:37Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Is it standard procedure to call the Captain back to the flight deck in such a situation? Another set of eyes and an additional brain in the cockpit might come up with a solution to the problem, help monitor instruments and the situation, and so forth. There have been situations where an off-duty pilot who came forward to offer help proved very helpful. It could be as simple as that. > [@](#): > > Given Broomsticks very sensible explanation of why it is unlikely the Captain took the controls. The last statement makes even less sense to me. Why would the PF turn the controls over to the PNF at that point, some 41 seconds before impact? Two pilots were on the controls at the same time, at least the way I read it. Rather than have them potentially work at cross-purposes one of them yielded control to the other. At least that’s how I interpreted it. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/123 "2011-06-05T04:27:05Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Is it standard procedure to call the Captain back to the flight deck in such a situation? You’ve spent a couple of minutes out of control and are approaching the ocean with a vertical speed of 120 mph - if that doesn’t warrant calling the Captain, what would? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/124 "2011-06-05T11:22:03Z")
But, realistically, if you’ve been falling towards the ocean for a couple minutes what the hell is the captain going to be able to do about it at that point? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/125 "2011-06-05T12:23:05Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > You’ve spent a couple of minutes out of control and are approaching the ocean with a vertical speed of 120 mph - if that doesn’t warrant calling the Captain, what would? Wasn’t suggesting he should not be called. Just trying to better understand the published sequence of events. As Broomstick pointed out, there probably wasn’t a lot he could do. If so, and if the PF should feel that he is fully in command, I wondered why they would call several times for the captain. I had not however considered what Broomstick pointed out, that in the commotion he could be of aid monitoring critical instruments.:smack: Not being a pilot myself, it is easy to forget the bewildering array of instruments and data they have before them. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/126 "2011-06-05T12:42:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > But, realistically, if you’ve been falling towards the ocean for a couple minutes what the hell is the captain going to be able to do about it at that point? Take the blame. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/127 "2011-06-05T12:52:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … what the hell is the captain going to be able to do about it at that point? I’d like to think it’s possible he could have taken a look at things and said: “Stick forward, trim down, gear down, full power - let’s see if we can get this thing flying again.” But at least he’s been saved the ignominy of being back in the passenger cabin while the plane for which he was responsible was crashing. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/128 "2011-06-05T12:58:31Z")
Actually, I’m surprised he wasn’t called much sooner. I’d think the standard captain’s instruction would be “Any abnormality you can’t diagnose and address within 15 seconds means you call me.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/129 "2011-06-05T13:08:40Z")
You’re assuming the PF and PNF knew they were in deep doo-doo from the start of the whole mess. If they _thought_ they understood the situation and had it under control, but actually didn’t, that could account for the delay in calling the captain. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/130 "2011-06-06T00:38:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If they _thought_ they understood the situation and had it under control, but actually didn’t, that could account for the delay in calling the captain. Right - and this looks like the best current explanation for the delay. But I’d say that a descent rate of 10,000 ft/min that isn’t changing in response to control inputs qualifies as deep doo-doo. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/131 "2011-06-06T00:54:53Z")
I definitely have to agree with _that._ ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/132 "2011-06-06T08:19:58Z")
I just saw an [Article titled _Air France 447’s Surprising Lesson: Intuition Can Kill_](http://news.discovery.com/human/air-france-447-surprising-lesson-intuition-can-kill-110606.html) which surprised me: > [@](#): > > Why did these trained pilots do the opposite of what they learned in flight school? They trusted their instincts. Human instinct and intuition for pilots in such a situation is to keep themselves (and therefore the rest of the aircraft) facing up toward the safety of the sky, not to intentionally aim directly toward the ground. In their fear and panic they listened to their intuition instead of their knowledge of basic aviation, and it cost hundreds of lives. > > This is not the first time that pilot intuition has killed passengers. In February 2009, a commuter flight crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., killing 50 people including one person on the ground. Investigators determined that the accident was caused by a series of errors by the pilot and co-pilot. They had not been paying attention to the plane’s airspeed, and when they realized the plane was about to stall, the pilot pulled the plane’s nose up instead of down, exactly as the Air France pilots did. I’d be interested to hear the comments of professional pilots on this. IANAP but would have thought the intuition _Nose Down = Speed and Lift_ would be etched into a pilot’s subconscious. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/133 "2011-06-06T10:01:33Z")
The article is old news to pilots - it _is_ counter-intuitive to push the nose down either just before or while in a stall. It’s something every pilot has to get past during initial training, and it’s why pilots are supposed to continue to practice stall recovery. However, while this is easy to do when you _know_ a stall is imminent, such as in training. When caught by surprise the conditioning and training don’t always kick in. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499/134 "2011-06-06T12:02:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’d be interested to hear the comments of professional pilots on this. IANAP but would have thought the intuition _Nose Down = Speed and Lift_ would be etched into a pilot’s subconscious. That’s not intuition, that’s training. Instinct is “crash=bad; stay away from ground.” Training is required in order to suppress the panic that will cause that instinct to irresistably assert itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-sensation-of-falling-38k-feet-in-3-5-minutes/583499.md?page=6)