# No, she may never know, but it's still not right! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471 "2005-04-15T13:42:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/41 "2005-04-15T16:14:49Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > Considering the growing popularity of brining a turkey before roasting, I’d be skeptical - though perhaps someone knowledgeable could taste a non-brined turkey versus a koshered turkey? (Hey, I’m a vegetarian, it’s been a while…) Pity I don’t have that issue handy or I’d consult it. A couple of years ago, _Cooks Illustrated_ did a taste test, roasting various turkeys, including fresh, frozen, and kosher without brining them and the kosher came out best. I can’t link to the info on their website because you’d have to pay to see it and it’ll be a while before I can find the issue in question at home, but there was a difference. On the other hand, these people are somewhat fanatical and good at picking up subtle differences, something I’m not. As for the juiciest turkey I’ve had, for the past two years at Thanksgiving, my family’s had deep-fried ones. Yes, it sounds outlandish, but it takes much less time to cook and is very tasty turkey, even when produced by non-cooks like my family. It may be heresy, but it’s _tasty_ heresy! 😃 CJ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/42 "2005-04-15T16:16:44Z")
It sounds like I would like kosher foods. I love dry turkey. The drier the better. I smother mine with gravy. I also like my beef cooked extra well done — enough to have a crispy coating. I smother it with steak sauce or mustard or what-have-you. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/43 "2005-04-15T16:16:45Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > - For big birds (large family = 20lb+), I cook them at 350 for 12 minutes per pound. Many recipe books say 20 min per pound, but that is for small birds. A sliding scale can be googled up which shows the different recommended levels for various sizes of birds. This is one reason a meat thermometer beats timed cooking hands down. Set the temperature you want and disregard time. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/44 "2005-04-15T16:24:42Z")
I have eaten kosher and non-kosher turkeys, and I can definitely say that kosher turkeys don’t inevitably come out drier than non-kosher turkeys. How you cook the turkey matters a lot more. I grew up eating non-kosher turkeys, all of which were quite dry. Since I’ve started keeping kosher, I’ve found out about brining turkeys (and not overcooking them), which makes them a lot less dry. And you’re not eating “the exact same substance” when you eat kosher and non-kosher turkey. The blood is drained out of kosher meat and poultry, so you could be eating blood in a non-kosher turkey that you wouldn’t get in a kosher turkey. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/45 "2005-04-15T16:26:14Z")
But it’s okay, as Jews can eat non-Kosher foods through a hole in the sheets! ;j ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/46 "2005-04-15T16:28:23Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m curious, though: in a blind taste test, could one tell the difference? Could you tell if you had consumed meat that had not been slaughtered by a _shochet_? Most definitely not, which is what makes this deception all the more heinous. If someone tried to pass off pork to me as kosher, I’d notice it right away. That wouldn’t happen with a non-kosher turkey. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/47 "2005-04-15T16:29:09Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > The same is true if you give a vegetarian a dish with meat broth (in the 99.9% of cases where it’s not motivated by an actual physical allergy to meat). So? Actually, no. For a vegetarian or vegan who has been without meat or meat products, consuming unknown meat products can be _painful_. I was a vegan for two years - I had not eaten any meat or broth or flavorings for about six months when I accidentally ate stir fry flavored with chicken broth. It was some painful stomach distress for me - nothing life-threatening, obviously, but it wasn’t pleasant at all. I was a little more careful about what I ate from then on. When I reintroduced meat into my diet, I had to do it somewhat slowly - otherwise, I was setting myself up for the same stomach distress. E. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/48 "2005-04-15T16:30:41Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Why is the life in the blood of mammals and birds but not fish? Where’s the fish life? Technically speaking, fish are not classified in Jewish law the same way that meat is. That’s why one could eat fish with dairy, but not meat. As a practical matter, drinking fish blood is prohibited by a Rabbinical decree, lest an observer think that he is drinking animal blood. However, if one leaves fish scales in the drink, it will then be obvious to an observer that it is fish blood and is permitted. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/49 "2005-04-15T16:41:58Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > As a practical matter, drinking fish blood is prohibited by a Rabbinical decree, lest an observer think that he is drinking animal blood. However, if one leaves fish scales in the drink, it will then be obvious to an observer that it is fish blood and is permitted. Where’s that puking smiley? I read [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=311709&highlight=forgotten+surprise), no problem. I eagerly seek out poo threads and other TMI threads to read, sometimes while eating. But the thought of drinking fish blood with scales in it- _that_ made me queasy. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/50 "2005-04-15T16:43:29Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m curious, though: in a blind taste test, could one tell the difference? Could you tell if you had consumed meat that had not been slaughtered by a shochet? I once had a Muslim friend ask me if I could tell the difference between _halal_ and non-_halal_ beef. I had cooked some Pakistani dishes with authentic recipies and from food purchased at a local Pakistani market so it was _halal_. I told him I couldn’t tell the difference at all. Still, the poor _yid_ who may end up eating non-_kosher_ turkey probably wouldn’t be in jepoardy of losing spiritual ground IIRC. Being tricked or forced to consume non-_halal_ foods, or consuming them out of just plain ignorance, wouldn’t cause problems according to my Muslim friend. I would imagine Judaism has a similar out. It just isn’t possible for everyone to be a butcher and a single dishonest butcher could really screw over a lot of unsuspecting individuals. G-d presumably knows that they were not intentionally flaunting his commands and therefore they kept covenant, as far as they were aware. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/51 "2005-04-15T17:47:58Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > I don’t think there’s any comparison to giving a vegetarian meat, or giving an alcoholic alcohol. > > There’s is no difference in real and practical terms between kosher chicken and non-kosher chicken. The person eating either are, spices and preparation aside, digesting **exactly** the same substance. > > The same can’t be said for meat/vegetable, alcoholic/non-alcoholic scenarios. > > Having said that, giving a friend one thing while lying its another is not something a real friend would do. I’d remove the alcohol scenario, but veg vs. meat? Nah. It won’t hurt him physically. Humans are built to eat both. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_chao_goes_mu/32/3191_2.png) [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Chao_Goes_Mu)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/52 "2005-04-15T18:19:50Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > But if you _don’t know_ your body certainly isn’t going to bsuffer any ill-effects or give the game away. You’re not going to throw up because your stomach goes “hang on, _this_ isn’t kosher!” Technically, you are right. But this is operating on the premise that “what you don’t know won’t hurt you” This is wrong, pure and simple. Let’s say a man has screws his secretary. If he decides not to tell his wife then her heart won’t be shattered, right? But then she is being deceived into believing she is married to a faithful man. These so called “friends” are going to deceive this woman into thinking she is consuming a kosher turkey, when in fact, it’s not. Granted boils are not going to erupt on her skin but her beliefs are being disrespected. Shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/53 "2005-04-15T21:04:27Z")
A quibble, since the gist of the post was really abour lying to your friends about what you are feeding them (abhorrent!) – but isn’t poultry considered meat as a rabinnical “technicality?” IOW – isn’t it true that at some point poultry was decreed to be like meat in order to avoid both confusion and _Mar’ith Ayin_ (“looks like” meat)? Because in that case, the whole question of Koshering poultry is really just a “safety mechanism”, not truly required by god, and the **technical** question of the “koshered” _vs_ non-“koshered” turkey becomes moot. (And lying about it is still scummy, whether it is relevant to religious law or not) Dani ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/54 "2005-04-15T21:09:32Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Yeah, definitely not cool. > > On the other hand (well, not really on the other hand, but out of curiousity), why does everything have to be kosher? I mean, kosher salt? Salt is pretty much salt, why does a Jewish person have to get a rabbi’s OK for salt? If I use non-kosher salt, is that bad? Too complicated. > > What’s the difference between a kosher turkey and a non-kosher turkey? “Kosher Salt” is sort of a confusing term. It’s not actually the salt that’s kosher. “Kosher salt” is simply large-grained salt used to drain excess bodily fluids from meat - and that _is_ a requirement for Kosher Goodness. So - Kosher salt is neither kosher nor non-kosher, but it’s a tool for making meat kosher. Of course. IAAVBLJ (I Am A Very Badly Lapsed Jew), so take this with a grain of…er…salt. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/55 "2005-04-15T21:14:23Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > There is a comparison for those whose religious/spiritual health is just as important as their physical one. I’d like to expand on this point. It’s worth mentioning that, if memory serves, kosher meat must be slaughtered in the most painless way practicable. In other words, one can be reasonably sure that kosher-slaughtered animals were not subjected to unneccsessary cruelty. If you’re not a vegetarian, but prefer that one’s meat be treated humanely before it’s Shuffled Off This Mortal Coil, that could be significant - just as a vegetarian might find it morally objectionable to eat meat at all. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/56 "2005-04-15T21:38:50Z")
Just to be clear, _Cook’s_ _encourages_ brining for non-kosher and non-self-basting turkeys. They discourage brining of kosher and self-basting turkeys because those birds have, essentially, already been brined and will be too salty if you brine them again yourself. I was just last night rereading an issue where they measured sodium levels. IIRC, turkey brined according to their directions had around .21 mg of sodium (per some unit I don’t remember), kosher turkeys had .27, and self-basting turkeys had more than brined but less than kosher. (Sorry, I wasn’t really concentrating on the exact numbers.) And according to _Cook’s_, kosher and sea salt tends to be _less_ salty than regular salt (per measure), due to the size difference. If you use kosher or sea salt, you have to adjust your recipes to use more than you’d use of regular granulated salt. They don’t recommend it for baking & such because it doesn’t dissolve as well. However, if you’re using it as a garnish-type seasoning (like on top of pretzels), then it works better. And yes, lying to someone about what you’re feeding them is bad. If you don’t want to feed them something that fits their dietary choices (be it kosher/halal, vegetarian/vegan, non-alcoholic, non-fish/seafood, non-allergy, whatever), then don’t invite them. Or if you’re crass, you can invite them and tell them that there won’t be any food for them, so that they can at least make their own arrangements. On the other hand, I can’t imagine that someone who’s willing to eat food prepared by someone as clueless as you overheard is really very concerned about keeping kosher. I’d be willing to bet good money that the lady you overheard doesn’t have a kashered kitchen, so as far as I understand, no meat that comes out of it will be kosher anyway. It could just be that her friend prefers kosher turkey for some non-religious reason. I know some people that buy kosher meats because they believe that the kosher products are fresher and of higher quality. (If we had any kosher butchers within a convenient distance, I’d give it a try myself.) So it may not be so much a disrespect of her religious beliefs as a choice to ignore someone she knows is just being picky and difficult for no good reason. I might feel the same way if, for instance, someone I’d invited to dinner tried to tell me what brand of hamburger I had to buy for her. Still no excuse to lie (I mean, go buy a spine and tell her you can’t afford to cater to her silly whims!), but not quite as scummy IMO. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/57 "2005-04-15T21:48:44Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’d remove the alcohol scenario, but veg vs. meat? Nah. It won’t hurt him physically. Humans are built to eat both. Actually, if the person in question has been a vegetarian for some years, or from birth like some of my hippie-raised friends, meat \*will \* make them sick. No, I don’t have a site so this is anecdotal information, but I’ve seen it happen. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/58 "2005-04-15T21:50:29Z")
Cite. I meant \_c\_ite. Don’t shoot me, please. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/59 "2005-04-15T22:15:42Z")
> [@Mr. Excellent](#): > > “Kosher Salt” is sort of a confusing term. It’s not actually the salt that’s kosher. “Kosher salt” is simply large-grained salt used to drain excess bodily fluids from meat - and that _is_ a requirement for Kosher Goodness. So - Kosher salt is neither kosher nor non-kosher, but it’s a tool for making meat kosher. In case anyone was just _dying_ to know, I checked my salt cans. Morton’s regular, iodized “table” salt does carry an [OU](http://www.ou.org) certification, as does their “Kosher” salt. However, Safeway’s brand of table salt does _not_ have a certification. So, you can have kosher and non-kosher table salt, depending on whether the packaging company chose to pay for the certification. Confusing enough? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471/60 "2005-04-15T22:45:29Z")
Well, what this woman proposed to do was really fucking shitty. I don’t care whether you avoid a particular food for health, religious, political, or any other reason, the choice should be yours and yours alone to make. If people don’t want to accommodate your choice, they shouldn’t have to, but they should not try to deceive you into eating something that you would not otherwise eat. I was interested by these observations by **lee** : > [@lee](#): > > [This letter](http://www.ukar.org/tax06.html) seems to indicate that salt itself does not need to be certified kosher. and > [@lee](#): > > [Yet this site](http://tropicalsalt.com/index.html) proudly displays its kosher certification for its salt. Well, i don’t pretend to know anything about the issue of kosher food, but it’s possible that this in this case the proud display of kosher certification could be largely a marketing tool. The candy i purchased today made the proud claim that it is “100% fat free.” True enough, but this conveniently ignores the fact that it’s almost 100% sugar. The “fat free” part is a marketing tool that, while strictly correct, really bears very little relation to how healthy the candy is. Maybe the kosker claim is there for a similar purpose. > [@TommyTutone](#): > > Just curious, do they slash the turkey’s neck and hang it for the blood to drain like they do with cattle? > > (because I always want my meat to suffer in its death throes before I consume it, makes me enjoy it just a little bit more) Well, i’m sure you’re probably just joking, but in case you’re not it’s worth pointing out that animals subjected to high levels of stress and trauma before and during the killing process tend to end up producing meat with a higher level of toxins than animals that are treated well and killed quickly and humanely. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’d remove the alcohol scenario, but veg vs. meat? Nah. It won’t hurt him physically. Humans are built to eat both. I don’t see the need to debate this point, although some experts believe that our physiological make-up is far more akin to that of herbivores than to that of omnivores or carnivores. But even if we are capable of eating both, the fact remains that if you don’t eat meat for a long time, suddenly eating it again can give you considerable grief, with stomach pains and assorted other unpleasant effects as the alimentary canal gets used to processing meat again. This might not have any long-term effects on a person’s health, but i’d say it qualifies as hurting him or her physically. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-she-may-never-know-but-its-still-not-right/299471.md?page=4)