# No smoking gun? NO SMOKING GUN?? \[in Iraq\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306 "2003-01-27T19:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![anonplz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@anonplz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anonplz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/81 "2003-01-30T19:13:17Z")
> [@](#): > > …Mandela is letting Bush have it… Does Mandela hate/resent the US? I have problems with his positions on a number of issues. He deserves to be admired for what he endured, but he isn’t really making sense lately. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/82 "2003-01-30T20:35:56Z")
Mr. Godwin … paging Mr. Godwin … ---
**Author:** ![anonplz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@anonplz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anonplz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/83 "2003-01-30T21:44:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Mr. Godwin … paging Mr. Godwin … ? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/84 "2003-01-30T22:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by december_ > Bush also hinted at another argument. He said he wouldn’t leave problems for other Administrations. The trouble with doing so is that they might not deal with them either. Of course Bush can’t do much more than _hint_ at this explanation or he will lay himself open to charges that one of his reasons for taking out Iraq now is a partisan need to fully, formally and irreversibly repudiate the Clinton approach to foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Panji\_Kidul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ab992/32.png) [@Panji\_Kidul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panji_Kidul)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/85 "2003-01-30T23:08:16Z")
Often heard when the pro-war protagonists spruke, that Saddam kills his own people. True he’s done that. I understand that you’d much prefer the U.S to kill non-combatant Iraqi’s. Make’s perfect sense! Saw a young U.S Army Lieutenant last night. He’s done his training to do his “job”. He equates it to a footballer having completed his training, and now want’s the match. This is evil. Lemmings. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/86 "2003-01-31T00:12:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*And even while Schwarzkopf is pulling his punches, hinting but not actually saying that Bush is being imprudent, \*\* That was Tuesday’s news. Schwarzkopf has now been [convinced to support the war by Bush’s speech](http://www.cnsnews.com/Pentagon/archive/200301/PEN20030129a.html). > [@](#): > > But on Wednesday, Gen.Schwarzkopf told NBC’s Today show he thought President Bush’s State of the Union speech was “very compelling,” and he said he looks forward to hearing the declassified information that Secretary of State Colin Powell will share with the world next week. > > “Saddam’s got to go,” Schwarzkopf said Wednesday morning. “He’s a monster in every single way you can think of and with the linkage to the terrorists, it’s scary what in fact could be done.” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/87 "2003-01-31T01:41:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*That was Tuesday’s news. Schwarzkopf has now been [convinced to support the war by Bush’s speech](http://www.cnsnews.com/Pentagon/archive/200301/PEN20030129a.html). \*\* **December** , out of curiousity, what is CNS news? Has anyone else covered this change in his opinion? I searched [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) and [MSN.com](http://MSN.com), but apparently not well enough. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/88 "2003-01-31T01:52:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian \* > \*\ ***December** , out of curiousity, what is CNS news? Has anyone else covered this change in his opinion? \*\* I didn’t know who they were, so I looked them up. Evidently they are [affiliated with Media Research Center and Brent Bozell](http://www.cnsnews.com/). This is a conservative group that critiques the media. I read the MRC [Cyber Alert](http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2003/cyb20030130.asp) regularly, and have found them to accurately report what the media said. I have confidence that Schwartzkopf’s comments on NBC were accurately reported. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/89 "2003-01-31T02:01:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Has anyone else covered this change in his opinion? He must have made an _snicker_ ‘about face’ rather [quickly](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52450-2003Jan27.html). > [@](#): > > **WaPo** Tuesday, January 28, 2003; Page C01 > TAMPA–Norman Schwarzkopf wants to give peace a chance. > > The general who commanded U.S. forces in the 1991 Gulf War says he hasn’t seen enough evidence to convince him that his old comrades Dick Cheney, Colin Powell and Paul Wolfowitz are correct in moving toward a new war now. He thinks U.N. inspections are still the proper course to follow. He’s worried about the cockiness of the U.S. war plan, and even more by the potential human and financial costs of occupying Iraq. > > And don’t get him started on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. If he did say what **december** alleges, that is quite a _har_ retreat from his earlier position. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/90 "2003-01-31T02:25:38Z")
**December** , I am sorry, but I am having a hard time confirming that Schwarzkopf was even on the NBC Today Show at all this morning, let alone what he said. I’ve checked the NBC web site, the Today Show pages, and nothing yet. Any suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/91 "2003-01-31T02:38:12Z")
And so it would seem that a person one would normally expect to support the President’s position does, in fact, support the President’s position. Dick Cheney is on board as well. What with Poland and Denmark, that pretty much amounts to overwhelming. This just in! Italy is throwing the full weight of its military might behind GeeDubya. That evens things out again. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/92 "2003-01-31T02:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > And so it would seem that a person one would normally expect to support the President’s position does, in fact, support the President’s position. I’m still having **HtB’s** problem: got a cite for that? All I could find was him “giving peace a chance” a couple days ago. That said, the WaPo really hung him out, “give peace a chance.” I would guess that article is why he is ‘on board’ now. They probably clued him in with intelligence and politely asked him to pipe down. Generals traditionally are skeptical of war plans and the politicians who hatch them. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/93 "2003-01-31T02:47:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian \* > \*\ ***December** , I am sorry, but I am having a hard time confirming that Schwarzkopf was even on the NBC Today Show at all this morning, let alone what he said. I’ve checked the NBC web site, the Today Show pages, and nothing yet. Any suggestions? \*\* Note that the CNS article says he was on the Today Show _yesterday_. I don’t know whether the the NBC web site lists all Today Show guests or how long they retain that information. I cannot find an original cite other than that CNS article. Here, the [New Republic](http://tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=202) picks up the same cite. They think there’s something fishy about Schwartzkopf’s rapid change in position, but they don’t question the accuracy of the report. > [@](#): > > Mickey Kaus links to this report suggesting that the State of the Union address sold the previously undecided General Norman Schwarzkopf on the necessity of war with Iraq. (Earlier this week Schwarzkopf had raised serious reservations in an interview with The Washington Post.) Doesn’t this sound just a little bit suspicious?.. > > Far be it from us to level any accusations of political meddling at the White House… But, jeez, at least give the guy a couple of days to pretend like he’s thought about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/94 "2003-01-31T02:48:10Z")
Excuse me for being a political cynic. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if it were true. I always expected Colin to come on board at some point, I think this was the plan from the very beginning - set Powell up as the rational, liberal one then it has all the more power when he suddenly turns, he’ll bring a lot of voters with him just because of the respect he holds. Did you really think that America would go into war and Colin Powell, ex-military man, President’s favourite, would not support the troops? Powell was always going to come on board, I’m not denying that he has been a force for reason but he ain’t gonna put his career on the line for Saddam Hussein. When it comes to it he was always gonna fall into line. It was just a question of when. But all this isn’t the point. The point is: _we haven’t actually seen this wowza new evidence yet_ Junior proclaimed the greatness of this “new” evidence in his over-dramatic and badly-delivered State of the Union. Myself, I’m prepared to be underwhelmed by it. He seemed to be saying: “You’re gonna be really wowed by this bonza new evidence we’ve got, honest, trust me” Yeah yeah, yadda yadda. Let’s see the evidence first buster, and we’ll make our own minds up about how compelling it is, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/95 "2003-01-31T02:48:45Z")
Heck, if Newt, Falwell, Rush and Coulter all [have faith in the MRC’s](http://www.mediaresearch.org/membership/kudos.asp) Cybercast News Service, who are we to argue ? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/96 "2003-01-31T02:50:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Italy is throwing the full weight of its military might behind GeeDubya. That evens things out again. Pasta eating surrender moped drivers? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/97 "2003-01-31T03:21:59Z")
Well, here my take and/or conjecture. Yours truly doth hereby note that this is strictly my opinion, somewhat intuitive and no cites will be offered. Countervailing opinions will be shrugged upon. Colin Powell is a fundamentally decent and sane human being, tempered by an awareness of the human cost of war. He is surrounded by men who have succumbed to the terrible temptation to be Leaders of Men in a Time of War. Some men love music, others peace, some men are never happier than when watching a baby sleep. Other men crave to be taken seriously. I think Colin Powell privately holds the contempt common to combat vets for civilians with delusions of strategic brilliance. I don’t believe its a “good cop/bad cop” scam, he really is reluctant to let slip the dogs. But he is also ambitious. He sees that chair in the Oval Office, assesses the man who currently sits in it, and draws an entirely sensible conclusion. Yep. I think Colin Powell wants to be President. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/98 "2003-01-31T15:25:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Yep. I think Colin Powell wants to be President. \*\* Odd, since the job was pretty much his for the taking in both 1996 and 2000, and given that GWB wanted him as VP but Powell early on said he wasn’t interested in an elected position. If Powell is seriously interested in the Oval Office, his choices to date certainly don’t demonstrate it. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/99 "2003-01-31T15:29:05Z")
I agree with **Dewey** (!!). Colin Powell is the quintessential company man. When his CEO is intractable, the company man joins the circle and pushes his boss’ message. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306/100 "2003-01-31T15:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Yep. I think Colin Powell wants to be President. \*\* > [@](#): > > **xenophon41** > Colin Powell is the quintessential company man. When his CEO is intractable, the company man joins the circle and pushes his boss’ message. Or, maybe in pushing toward war…Colin Powell is _right_.:eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-smoking-gun-no-smoking-gun-in-iraq/151306.md?page=6)