# No Such Thing as Voter Fraud? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613 "2009-10-21T15:44:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/1 "2009-10-21T15:44:24Z")
[From this article:](http://archives.timesunion.com/mweb/wmsql.wm.request?oneimage&imageid=8785873) > [@](#): > > Brian Suozzo, an engineer on 24th Street, said his signature and other information were forged on a ballot as well as the undated application that was used to obtain it. The ballot application indicates in someone else’s handwriting that Suozzo was unable to vote in person in the Sept. 15 primary because he was ‘‘at home recovering from medical procedure.’’ > > ‘‘Were you at home recovering from a medical procedure?’’ Gruenberg asked Suozzo. > > ‘‘No, I was not,’’ Suozzo testified. > . > . > . > Still, other witnesses testified their signatures were forgeries and that someone had made up excuses on ballot applications, without their knowledge, about why they couldn’t vote in person. They were approached by various people, or candidates, from the city’s Democratic party, they said. > > Anna Berrio of Griswold Heights testified she’d never been to Cape Cod, which is where someone wrote on her application that she would be vacationing on primary day. > > Jessica Boomhower, a home-health aide, said she signed an absentee application given to her several weeks ago by Gary Galuski, a Democratic South Troy councilman up for re-election, and Anthony DeFiglio, a housing authority employee. > > Boomhower testified she was ‘‘absolutely not’’ in Boston on primary day as it states on her absentee application. She also said she never received the ballot later cast in her name. So what does the argument shift to now? “OK, there’s been only one case of voting fraud ever, and this was it!” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/2 "2009-10-21T15:47:59Z")
Voting fraud in Troy has a long and distinguished history. And who ever said there’s no such thing as voting fraud? Obviously voting fraud exists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/3 "2009-10-21T15:51:15Z")
I vote the OP be returned to the factory for retooling. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/4 "2009-10-21T15:54:34Z")
Wait? Is this supposed to relate to the issue of fraudulent registrations typically associated with discussions of ACORN? If so, I don’t think you’ve understood the issues and arguments involved. If not, a bit more context around your OP’s title would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/5 "2009-10-21T16:00:05Z")
Undoubtedly there is voter fraud. The question is how rampant it is in this case? Stealing is illegal. People still steal. Should we institute the death penalty for shoplifters? So, how hard do we fight against voter fraud? By that I mean it is possible to institute laws that while perhaps lowering the fraud rate by (say) 10 bogus ballots may prevent 1,000 legitimate voters from voting. Is that an improvement on the situation? Certainly voter fraud should be fought. Just do not kill the patient to cure the disease. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/6 "2009-10-21T16:00:25Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Obviously voting fraud exists. Yes, and America takes it seriously when it’s a serious problem: [Karzai needed convincing twice on new election](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jjh406co5c9vR_88I54jiBSMxCTAD9BFGM9O0) When it’s _not_ such a serious problem, there’s no need to carpet-bomb voter registration drives. Not that anyone’s doing that… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/7 "2009-10-21T16:07:10Z")
Keep digging - there’s got to be a pony in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/8 "2009-10-21T16:18:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [From this article:](http://archives.timesunion.com/mweb/wmsql.wm.request?oneimage&imageid=8785873) > > So what does the argument shift to now? “OK, there’s been only one case of voting fraud ever, and this was it!” I think you’ve utterly misunderstood the issue. And frankly, I’d be embarrassed if I were you. I assume you’re referring to Acorn, right? Do you understand that the fraudulent registrations were the result of workers who perpetrated fraud on Acorn? Do you understand that Acorn in most cases flagged suspicious names for election officials? Do you understand that registration fraud isn’t the same thing as voter fraud? Why are you suggesting that people have said there has never been a case of voter fraud? Who said that? Of course there has. You appear to have misunderstood the case for Acorn’s defenders, who have said that when some low level functionary turns in a registration for “Mickey Mouse” to get to his quota without working that Mickey never turns up to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/9 "2009-10-21T16:30:29Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11634796&postcount=39](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11634796&postcount=39) > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Generally they fall back on “voter fraud,” which does not really exist in America at present… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11609923&postcount=8](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11609923&postcount=8) > [@gonzomax](#): > > They have spent millions of dollars of taxpayer money prosecuting voter fraud which is a republican illusion. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10368833&postcount=7](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10368833&postcount=7) > [@Mr Frink](#): > > As far as actual voter fraud…it’s pretty insignificant. Mostly due to felons voting. Not very many people will go through to risk of a federal charge just to be able to vote twice. Not a big reward there. There have been only 5 convictions for multiple voting in the years 2002-2005. Not enough to impact an election. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7796123&postcount=9](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7796123&postcount=9) > [@Apos](#): > > Essentially, it’s a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. There just isn’t any evidence of huge degrees of THIS sort of voter fraud. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11494158&postcount=91](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11494158&postcount=91) > [@cosmodan](#): > > Not to mention that all the hand waving about voter fraud intended to imply a hijack of elections is BS. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5349486&postcount=8](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5349486&postcount=8) > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The abuses you describe – the same person voting more than once, casting votes on behalf of dead people, etc. – are things I’ve heard of, but they date from the long-gone days of urban machine politics. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8515483&postcount=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8515483&postcount=5) > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As I recall, however, no Doper was able to provide a single credible cite showing “voter fraud” is a real problem. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8930311&postcount=10](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8930311&postcount=10) > [@](#): > > The bogus “vote fraud” hysteria helped sell New Mexico’s legislature on the Republican plan to require citizenship IDs to vote - all to stop “fraudulent” voters that simply don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/10 "2009-10-21T16:32:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I think you’ve utterly misunderstood the issue. And frankly, I’d be embarrassed if I were you. > > I assume you’re referring to Acorn, right? Do you understand that the fraudulent registrations were the result of workers who perpetrated fraud on Acorn? No. I have no idea why you’d think that, since I don’t mention ACORN anywhere. I’m referring to the persistent meme over the past five years (or more!) here that vote fraud simply doesn’t exist, at least in any scale that would swing an election, and thus controls such as voter ID cards are unncessary. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/11 "2009-10-21T16:33:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Undoubtedly there is voter fraud. The question is how rampant it is in this case? > > Stealing is illegal. People still steal. Should we institute the death penalty for shoplifters? > > So, how hard do we fight against voter fraud? By that I mean it is possible to institute laws that while perhaps lowering the fraud rate by (say) 10 bogus ballots may prevent 1,000 legitimate voters from voting. Is that an improvement on the situation? > > Certainly voter fraud should be fought. Just do not kill the patient to cure the disease. Agreed. I don’t believe that requiring an ID card in order to vote would be “killing the patient” especially if the ID card was free. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/12 "2009-10-21T16:38:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. I have no idea why you’d think that, since I don’t mention ACORN anywhere. > > I’m referring to the persistent meme over the past five years (or more!) here that vote fraud simply doesn’t exist, at least in any scale that would swing an election, and thus controls such as voter ID cards are unncessary. I’m sure that when issues of scale of influence on the outcome were raised, something larger than the Working Families Party primary election in Troy, New York were under discussion. This may have seemed like a real gotcha ya moment when it first occurred to you. I don’t think it’s really playing out that way. ETA: **Bricker** , how would a voter ID card be relevant to the issue of absentee ballot fraud in Troy, New York? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/13 "2009-10-21T16:40:10Z")
Well, those people you’ve quoted who claimed that voting fraud doesn’t exist are obviously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/14 "2009-10-21T16:40:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11634796&postcount=39](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11634796&postcount=39) > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11609923&postcount=8](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11609923&postcount=8) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10368833&postcount=7](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10368833&postcount=7) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7796123&postcount=9](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7796123&postcount=9) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11494158&postcount=91](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11494158&postcount=91) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5349486&postcount=8](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5349486&postcount=8) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8515483&postcount=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8515483&postcount=5) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8930311&postcount=10](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8930311&postcount=10) Work on your reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/15 "2009-10-21T16:46:12Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Work on your reading comprehension. No, those people he quoted did say that voter fraud didn’t exist or wasn’t a problem, so this is evidence that they’re incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/16 "2009-10-21T16:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Work on your reading comprehension. [/QUOTE] Damn…another irony meter hath been sacrificed to the 'dope with a mighty KABOOM! > [@](#): > > So what does the argument shift to now? “OK, there’s been only one case of voting fraud ever, and this was it!” I think it’s ever in flux, depending on who’s gore is getting oxed at any given time. It also depends on where one stands on the political fence as to whether you think voter fraud is a real but minor issue or a problem causing the republic to teeter on the verge of collapse, or whether you feel that Big Business(a.k.a Die Bold The Evil) is out stealing elections for a given party or that it’s all an opium dream by the other party. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/17 "2009-10-21T16:56:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agreed. > > I don’t believe that requiring an ID card in order to vote would be “killing the patient” especially if the ID card was free. You have yet to make a case that this would improve things. Will it lower vote fraud? Probably. How much though? How much fraud is out there and how has it affected elections? (Please distinguish between bogus registrations and actual bogus votes.) In the OP you pointed to three people who claim fraudulent registrations. I am willing to concede there are more although if it was rampant I bet you’d be citing astounding statistics of it rather than a few anecdotes. How many people will your registration card keep from voting? I am betting a lot. While it may seem a simple thing for you to obtain you cannot assume that is the case for all people. Further, it is common wisdom that such a voter card would bear heavily on the poor and disenfranchised thus skewing elections in favor of conservatives. Remember in ACORN’s case (IIRC) ACORN themselves flagged what they deemed bogus registrations to make it easy for the state to follow up on. Further, they were required _by law_ to hand them all in, bogus ones included. Seems they did their due diligence. In the past Doper’s have taken me to task for identifying a “problem” that, while it technically existed, was a bare blip in the grand scheme of things and that a proposed solution was using a howitzer to kill a gnat. Seems you are on that track as well. Point to a serious and pervasive problem of vote fraud that needs extra measures to curtail. Frankly, when it comes to messing with voter rolls to swing elections, Republicans have got the Democrats beat in spades and then some (via “legal” voter roll purging). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/18 "2009-10-21T16:58:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, those people he quoted did say that voter fraud didn’t exist or wasn’t a problem, so this is evidence that they’re incorrect. I don’t really see that this instance of fraudulent absentee ballots in a primary for the Working Families Party in Troy, New York, demonstrates that voter fraud is a “problem” in America. Anyone who said it flat out never happens would be wrong, but anyone who said it is not a meaningful problem or does not exist in any notably impactful way would not be rendered incorrect by this example. **Whack-a-Mole** , note that these were not fraudulent registrations. These were fraudulent applications for absentee ballots. Which, in Troy, New York can be requested by mail, so I don’t see how an ID card is relevant anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/19 "2009-10-21T17:03:54Z")
I won’t speak on behalf of all the people quoted. But I think pretty much everyone would concede that some cases of voter fraud have occurred in every election in this country. So the issue is not whether it exists. The important issues are does it exist to the point of changing the outcome of the elections and are all reasonable actions being taken to minimize it as much as possible. And you can quote me on that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613/20 "2009-10-21T17:05:01Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Anyone who said it flat out never happens would be wrong, but anyone who said it is not a meaningful problem or does not exist in any notably impactful way would not be rendered incorrect by this example. [/QUOTE] Sadly, and with reluctance I must agree with Hentor. -XT [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-such-thing-as-voter-fraud/514613.md?page=2)