No Such Thing as Voter Fraud?

[Bricker]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Please look back over the quotes you assembled. I appreciate your taking the time to do so. However, they almost entirely describe this as a “problem that does not really exist.” You’ve done nothing to contest those claims with the OP. It’s almost like you’re actually reading neither your own OP or the Doper quotes you’ve assembled.

I disagree.

The OP clearly lays out credible examples of voting fraud.

The quotes clearly demonstrate that plenty of times, people here have said in effect, “I deny there is such a problem.”

Now you appear to be offering a more nuanced response, as indeed you have no choice but to do: we didn’t literally mean NEVER. We meant it’s not a big problem.

And if more examples are found, then they don’t matter either, because you meant a problem even bigger than those – right?

Again, I ask how an ID card has any bearing on the present example, since one can simply complete and mail in an application to recieve an absentee ballot in Troy, NY? I really am curious how your solution addresses the problem within your OP.

Really? The problem in Troy, New York, was that someone requested an absentee ballot in another person’s name, received the ballot, filled it out, and sent it back in. They were able to do this because there is apparently no procedure to verify the identity of the person requesting an absentee ballot.

And you don’t see how requiring ID of voters might address the problem.

OK.

If voters, both in-person and absentee, were required to provide some sort of identification prior to casting their ballot (or receiving an absentee ballot) then the fraud described above would not have happened.

I really thought those inferential leaps were clear, but I’m happy to lay it out in this level of detail for you.

[Chronos]

If voters, both in-person and absentee, were required to provide some sort of identification prior to casting their ballot (or receiving an absentee ballot) then the fraud described above would not have happened.

So folks casting absentee ballots are, what, supposed to mail in their ID card with the application, or something? How would that work?

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Bricker

I disagree.

The OP clearly lays out credible examples of voting fraud.

The quotes clearly demonstrate that plenty of times, people here have said in effect, “I deny there is such a problem.”

Now you appear to be offering a more nuanced response, as indeed you have no choice but to do: we didn’t literally mean NEVER. We meant it’s not a big problem.

That doesn’t seem like a reasonable reading of all of those cites, to me.

BrainGlutton’s first cite, with its “really”, seems reasonable enough to me to read a belief in not a complete lack of voter fraud. I’d say “it’s not a big problem” would be a fair reading of that post; there isn’t “really” a problem says to me “there are problems, but they aren’t big, or at least significant”.

Your characterization seems apt of gonzomax.

**MrFrink’s **cite, again, seems to go well with the “it’s not a big problem” reading, not “I deny there is such a problem”.

Similar for Apos. While the first sentence would go for your understanding, I think the second qualifies it into more like your “nuanced” suggested view.

Your characterization of cosmosdan seems apt.

BrainGlutton’s last two cites are not denial of the problem in and of themselves, but a denial of having heard of current instances of the problem.

Your final cite is not a poster of these boards.

That’s two i’d agree with. I’m sure, if you looked, you’d probably be able to find more cites that I might agree with. However, I dispute your reading of all of those cites - you suggest that moving from a total denial to a more nuanced denial is a movement, when in fact it seems to me that in only two cases was a total denial the case, and in all the others the posters already seem to have held the more nuanced view, or, express no opinion on that point. At the very very least, it certainly doesn’t seem to me that your reading of them is “clearly” what they are saying.

Your final cite, of course, cannot be used to back up the point that “people here have said” such things, but I don’t think you were using it in particular for that purpose. Likely you weren’t referring to it.

[Bricker]

@Revenant_Threshold

That’s two i’d agree with. I’m sure, if you looked, you’d probably be able to find more cites that I might agree with. However, I dispute your reading of all of those cites - you suggest that moving from a total denial to a more nuanced denial is a movement, when in fact it seems to me that in only two cases was a total denial the case, and in all the others the posters already seem to have held the more nuanced view, or, express no opinion on that point. At the very very least, it certainly doesn’t seem to me that your reading of them is “clearly” what they are saying.

On re-reading… I agree with you.

This is a tendency I have to guard against, I think: I see the extreme view lumped in with the nuanced view, and I lump all of them together under the extreme category. Ironic flaw for someone who is at the same time exhorting others to adopt a nuanced view.

So… yeah. The “it doesn’t exist at all” response is not nearly as pervasive as I imagined it was. Point taken.

[Anaamika]

Whoa, that’s just a few miles from me.

Hey, I have a question, if someone would be kind enough to answer it. In NY, I do have a voter registration card - but no one ever asks for it at the polls. Why do they go through so much trouble to issue me one and even tell me to bring it if they aren’t going to look at it?

And obviously I don’t have a problem with a voter ID card and I think they should be issued, preferably scanned.

[LonesomePolecat]

@Chronos

So folks casting absentee ballots are, what, supposed to mail in their ID card with the application, or something? How would that work?

So you’re saying there shouldn’t be any procedures to keep someone from stealing or neutralizing my vote by abusing the absentee ballot provision?

Given the OP’s examples, we should necessarily ask how many other instances went undetected. You seem to think that two specific examples of voter fraud are not significant. Granted, there’s not much of a problem if there are only two needles in a haystack, but if you stick your hand into a haystack and get pricked by two needles, it’s reasonable to assume there are likely to be a lot of other needles in that haystack.

I’m immensely skeptical that there would be some huge problem with disenfranchised voters if a stricter standard of identification was required at the polls, and we know from past experience that voter fraud is always a danger. Anybody who would give up on voting because of a lack of ID probably didn’t care that much about voting in the first place. So let’s see if you can meet the same standards you’re demanding of the opposition. What hard evidence do you have that disenfranchisment would be a serious problem if voters were required to present picture ID at the polls?

[LonesomePolecat]

@gonzomax

Voter fraud is extremely rare and pretty easy to catch. The idea that it is a huge problem, is an excuse to purge and question voters of lower class. .

Nonsense. There have been plenty of instances of voter fraud in American history.

[Gyrate]

@LonesomePolecat

Nonsense. There have been plenty of instances of voter fraud in American history.

Agreed. And when I get that time machine built, I’ll definitely be going back to suggest voter ID cards (probably starting with Daley Sr.'s Chicago).

However, the statement you’re responding to uses the present tense (“Voter fraud is extremely rare and pretty easy to catch.”) What are the current rates of voter registration fraud? Are they significant enough to warrant a widespread change to the system?

[LonesomePolecat]

@Gyrate

Agreed. And when I get that time machine built, I’ll definitely be going back to suggest voter ID cards (probably starting with Daley Sr.'s Chicago).

However, the statement you’re responding to uses the present tense (“Voter fraud is extremely rare and pretty easy to catch.”)

Given the scandals associated with ACORN, I’d say voter fraud is hardly a thing of the past.

@Gyrate

What are the current rates of voter registration fraud? What are the current rates of voter registration fraud? Are they significant enough to warrant a widespread change to the system?

What are the current rates of disenfranchisment? Are they significant enough to warrant forbidding a perfectly reasonable requirement for proper identification at the polls?

The widespread change I want to see is not a radical change; requiring a picture ID simply is not much of a burden, and anyone who was deterred from voting because of it probably didn’t care much about voting in the first place. I don’t doubt there are those who exaggerate the danger of voter fraud, but at the same time I don’t doubt there are those who want to pretend that voter fraud somehow doesn’t really matter. America has a long history of both voter fraud and disenfranchisement. It is absurd to insist that one is a problem, but the other isn’t.

[gonzomax]

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_cost_of_the_voter_fraud_fraud As has been made clear many times, voter fraud is rare . The railing against the non problem, is an attempt to get control of the voting process. Like in Florida ,broom a ton of poor voters from the rolls to assist the republican party. Would you feel the same if the democrats started purging republican voters? Should Colter be allowed to vote? The fraud is the idiots who actually can not grasp that fraud is not a problem. The mechanisms in place work very well. Trying to change the system to prevent a non existent problem, is fraudulent.

[Squink]

@LonesomePolecat

requiring a picture ID simply is not much of a burden…

So you’ll buy one for each of us, and volunteer to do all the work required to keep em current, and enforce harsh penalties on anyone who even thinks of using them for purposes of which I do not approve?
-Thanks, but still, no thanks.

Perhaps a national ID could be used to deport illegal Mexicans*, but if you want to sneak such a thing past us voters, you’re going to have to come up with a better excuse than ten or twenty cases of voter fraud each year across the whole freaking country.

---

*not that anyone has mentioned anything about a national ID system.

[LonesomePolecat]

@Squink

So you’ll buy one for each of us, and volunteer to do all the work required to keep em current, and enforce harsh penalties on anyone who even thinks of using them for purposes of which I do not approve?
-Thanks, but still, no thanks.

Perhaps a national ID could be used to deport illegal Mexicans*, but if you want to sneak such a thing past us voters, you’re going to have to come up with a better excuse than **ten or twenty cases of voter fraud **each year across the whole freaking country.

(emphasis added)

The Threat of Non-citizens Votingby Hans A. Spovesky. Article published by the Heritage Foundation which documents thousands of cases of illegal alien who are registered to vote.

… a federal grand jury in 1984 … found large numbers of aliens registered to vote in Chicago. As the grand jury reported, many aliens “register to vote so that they can obtain documents identifying them as U.S. citizens” and have “used their voters’ cards to obtain a myriad of benefits, from social security to jobs with the Defense Department.” The U.S. Attorney at the time estimated that there were at least 80,000 illegal aliens registered to vote in Chicago, and dozens were indicted and convicted for registering and voting.

A random sample of just 10 percent of the 3,000 Hispanics registered to vote in California’s 39th Assembly District by an independent group “revealed phony addresses and large numbers of registrants who admitted they were not U.S. citizens.”

In 2005, Arizona passed Proposition 200, which requires anyone registering to vote to provide “satisfactory evidence of United States citizenship,” such as a driver’s license, a birth certificate, a passport, naturalization documents, or any other documents accepted by the federal government to prove citizenship for employment purposes. The state issues a “Type F” driver’s license to individuals who are legally present in the United States but are not citizens. Since Proposition 200 took effect, 2,177 non-citizens applying for such licenses have attempted to register to vote. Another 30,000 have been denied registration because they could not produce evidence of citizenship.

[CannyDan]

@LonesomePolecat

Given the scandals associated with ACORN, I’d say voter fraud is hardly a thing of the past.

Please, let’s not rehash that disproven claim. Voter *registration *fraud is markedly different from voter fraud. And ACORN hasn’t been proven to indulge in either.

@LonesomePolecat

What are the current rates of disenfranchisment? Are they significant enough to warrant forbidding a perfectly reasonable requirement for proper identification at the polls?

Poor people generally have a hard time achieving registration-type requirements that are trivial for the better heeled. Problems with transportation, problems taking time off work, problems with day care, problems with documentation itself (if you don’t have one form of ID, it’s harder to obtain another-- duh!) and such issues make even a “free” voter ID a major project for many people.

To suggest that folks who are defeated by this “probably didn’t care that much about voting in the first place” seems a harsh and unfounded judgement. Some of us would suggest instead that the requirement is too onerous, therefore it is not reasonable.

To justify such a requirement, you should first show that there is actually a significant level of voter fraud, significant being defined as greater than a vanishingly small speck on the mountain of total votes cast. Not one, not two, not several, but enough to actually have the potential to affect the outcome of any given race. (Bricker, going for “nuanced view” here, not outright denial.)

Then show how this number, whatever it is, compares to the probable number of people who will be disenfranchised by your “solution”. Those of us who argue against new voter ID requirements are certain that the later number would be, not just larger, but orders of magnitude larger, than the former.

[Revenant_Threshold]

Here’s a question; what rate of discovered to undiscovered fraud would it be reasonable to assume? I mean, let’s say ten cases of fraud are discovered. Would it be reasonable to assume that another ten have gone undiscovered - that fraud discovery/undiscovery is a 50/50 bet - or a lower or higher number?

[LonesomePolecat]

@CannyDan

Please, let’s not rehash that disproven claim. Voter *registration *fraud is markedly different from voter fraud. And ACORN hasn’t been proven to indulge in either.

:dubious: If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell. I fail to see how fraudulent registration should not be considered part of the voter fraud problem. Did you actually read that article I linked to and quoted?

@CannyDan

Poor people generally have a hard time achieving registration-type requirements that are trivial for the better heeled. Problems with transportation, problems taking time off work, problems with day care, problems with documentation itself (if you don’t have one form of ID, it’s harder to obtain another-- duh!) and such issues make even a “free” voter ID a major project for many people.

I am immensely skeptical of this.

@CannyDan

To suggest that folks who are defeated by this “probably didn’t care that much about voting in the first place” seems a harsh and unfounded judgement. Some of us would suggest instead that the requirement is too onerous, therefore it is not reasonable.

And yet these same people seem to find it easy enough to come up with appropriate identification when it comes to applying for welfare or renting videos or get jobs. It just isn’t that hard, CD. Hell, millions of illegals manage to get these kind of documents.

@CannyDan

To justify such a requirement, you should first show that there is actually a significant level of voter fraud, significant being defined as greater than a vanishingly small speck on the mountain of total votes cast. Not one, not two, not several, but enough to actually have the potential to affect the outcome of any given race. (Bricker, going for “nuanced view” here, not outright denial.)

Again, did you actually read that article?

@CannyDan

Then show how this number, whatever it is, compares to the probable number of people who will be disenfranchised by your “solution”. Those of us who argue against new voter ID requirements are certain that the later number would be, not just larger, but orders of magnitude larger, than the former.

Facts, please? I find it very strange that you apparently expect me to go to a great deal of trouble to present specific facts in support of my case, while exempting yourself from the same requirement. Just as curiously, I must produce actual, specific numbers about voter fraud, while you are allowed to submit “probable” numbers for disenfranchisement. :dubious: :rolleyes:

We know there are tens of millions of illegal aliens in our country. Most of them use fraudulent documents to get welfare, jobs and other benefits.

That fact alone is sufficient reason to justify stricter identification requirements at the polls.

[LonesomePolecat]

@Revenant_Threshold

Here’s a question; what rate of discovered to undiscovered fraud would it be reasonable to assume? I mean, let’s say ten cases of fraud are discovered. Would it be reasonable to assume that another ten have gone undiscovered - that fraud discovery/undiscovery is a 50/50 bet - or a lower or higher number?

Here’s another question: What rate of disenfranchisement can be reasonably assumed? You guys need to show–not just speculate about all those mysterious poor folks who allegedly can’t get enough ID to vote but have enough ID to apply for welfare and Medicaid–that disenfranchisement really is a serious problem with photo ID. And just how low would that rate have to be before you would no long object to requirements that would protect my vote from being nullifed by an illegal one?

[Airbeck]

Here’s a hypothetical regarding the photo ID requirement for voting:

I’ve had my license taken from me for a speeding ticket before. They sent it back to me, but my ticket was my ID until I got it back. This was also no more than 10 mph over the limit. So let’s say I’m driving to the polls to vote and I get pulled over and the traffic cop takes my license in exchange for the ticket, like I’ve had happen. Does being guilty of speeding make me automatically lose my right to vote? According to you, since I now do not have a photo ID when I arrive at the polling site, I cannot vote. Does this seem like an acceptable reason to disenfranchise me? Does the punishment (loss of voting rights) fit the crime (traffic violation)?

There are any number of reasons that a person could legitimately not possess a photo ID at a given time. This does not mean that person has no rights as a citizen any more.

[Fear_Itself]

I don’t see how the evidence cited in the OP proves that voter fraud exists. What it demonstrates is election fraud. The voters were innocent victims when absentee ballots were cast in their names; the voter committed no fraud. If ballot boxes were stuffed with bogus absentee ballots, that is not voter fraud. Voter fraud is when a voter registers illegally, or casts more than one vote in different jurisdictions.

[Bricker]

@Airbeck

Here’s a hypothetical regarding the photo ID requirement for voting:

I’ve had my license taken from me for a speeding ticket before. They sent it back to me, but my ticket was my ID until I got it back. This was also no more than 10 mph over the limit. So let’s say I’m driving to the polls to vote and I get pulled over and the traffic cop takes my license in exchange for the ticket, like I’ve had happen. Does being guilty of speeding make me automatically lose my right to vote? According to you, since I now do not have a photo ID when I arrive at the polling site, I cannot vote. Does this seem like an acceptable reason to disenfranchise me? Does the punishment (loss of voting rights) fit the crime (traffic violation)?

There are any number of reasons that a person could legitimately not possess a photo ID at a given time. This does not mean that person has no rights as a citizen any more.

You would use your ticket as your ID and cast a provisional ballot, which would be counted just as your vote would.

Seriously? This is your case for not having voter ID? That a voter might be pulled over and have to surrender his license on Election Day?

[LonesomePolecat]

@Fear_Itself

I don’t see how the evidence cited in the OP proves that voter fraud exists. What it demonstrates is election fraud. The voters were innocent victims when absentee ballots were cast in their names; the voter committed no fraud. If ballot boxes were stuffed with bogus absentee ballots, that is not voter fraud. Voter fraud is when a voter registers illegally, or casts more than one vote in different jurisdictions.

Ah, the Whoopi Goldberg defense–it was rape, but it wasn’t rape rape.