# No talk about Trump's bungled adventure in Yemen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896 "2017-02-03T12:42:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/41 "2017-02-03T17:19:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Beyond all this, where is the proof that this was actually bungled or unsuccessful, other than a sailor getting killed?. Just the large number of needless civilian deaths, and the possibility that the raid provided no strategic value. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/42 "2017-02-03T17:36:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we “took back” Raqqa, what would we do with it? I wasn’t aware that it was ever ours, but I’m eager to hear what you think. What’s a more reasonable reading of taking back Raqqa, that the US would occupy it, or that ISIS would be pushed out by US backed forces? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/43 "2017-02-03T17:53:28Z")
Idea is probably purely an “image” thingy. ISIS has claimed Raqqa as their invincible capital, solid proof that Allah is on their side, and will intervene on their behalf. Clearly, depriving them of it would have some value, but how much? Dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/44 "2017-02-03T18:15:49Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > The paranoid, Machiavellian conspiracy theorist inside me says Obama “left” this bad raid plan lying around, hoping Herr Twitler would find it and act on it, to make him look incompetent. Knowing it would fail spectacularly. Lord Orange and his minions probably threw out the plan because they thought exactly that – it’s what _they’d_ do if their positions were reversed… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/45 "2017-02-03T18:16:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Blame Obama _before_ authorizing the mission? But what happens if, God forbid, the mission is a success and Obama gets the credit? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/46 "2017-02-03T18:28:22Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > What’s a more reasonable reading of taking back Raqqa, that the US would occupy it, or that ISIS would be pushed out by US backed forces? I don’t know what’s reasonable. That’s why I asked. If you push DA-esh out of Raqqa, where do they go? Do the people in the place where they end up want them? And then who takes over Raqqa? Assad? Something as bad as Da-esh? Does Assad turn it into Aleppo II? Anyway, I’m not going to shed any tears about Obama’s plan being scuttled as I don’t want us there in the first place. If Trump does something worse, then boo on him. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/47 "2017-02-03T18:59:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But what happens if, God forbid, the mission is a success and Obama gets the credit? You don’t think the trump admin would be above arranging a little accident? Oh, woes me. The mission would have gone off without a hitch, except Obama… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/48 "2017-02-03T19:12:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You don’t think the trump admin would be above arranging a little accident? > > Oh, woes me. The mission would have gone off without a hitch, except Obama… All kidding aside, I’m guessing the Trump administration wants an occasional success. So I think they’ll continue the current pattern of waiting to see what the outcome is. If the mission succeeds, Trump will take all the credit. If it fails, he’ll put the blame on Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/49 "2017-02-03T19:56:49Z")
> [@bump](#): > > One soldier getting killed in the course of a raid doesn’t even come close to the standard for bungling. It’s an occupational hazard when your job is to go in and kill people as well as effectively steal intelligence information. You didn’t seem to outright dismiss a similar situation here. So what is it, is is legitimate to talk about incidental foreign deaths or not? > [@I Pit Hillary Clinton](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/103): > > I’m not saying that they like that stuff, but that they disliked Hillary more. And there was probably a certain amount of “let’s roll this turd in glitter, now that we’ve chosen it.” going on, and that’s what you saw. > > The Trump supporters I know constantly harp about Clinton, Benghazi, emails, Vince Foster, impeachment, lying, dishonesty, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/50 "2017-02-03T20:05:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know what’s reasonable. That’s why I asked. If you push DA-esh out of Raqqa, where do they go? Do the people in the place where they end up want them? And then who takes over Raqqa? Assad? Something as bad as Da-esh? Does Assad turn it into Aleppo II? > > Anyway, I’m not going to shed any tears about Obama’s plan being scuttled as I don’t want us there in the first place. If Trump does something worse, then boo on him. Frankly I don’t know what’s reasonable either. It appears that Obama was taking things slowly and looking carefully at the diplomatic fallout possibilities and decided that this looked like the best idea to degrade ISIS available under the circumstances. So since they are the experts I would trust their judgment over my own. In terms of who takes over Raqqa in this plan it looks like it would end up being US backed Kurds, which is probably the best we could hope for in that region of the world. If Trump took a nuanced approach to the plan and after a long and thoughtful process decided ways in which it could be improved I would feel better about the situation, but it appears as though they took one look at it said, its garbage and all the people who suggested it are losers, and we’re gonna have the bestest plan ever. This in particular worries me: [QUOTE= WP article] Trump has directed his defense secretary to bring him multiple options and to ignore the restrictions on troop numbers and civilian casualties that were put in place by Obama. [/QUOTE] I figure that in reality their awesome plan to deal with ISIS is going to be to take a page from the Russian playbook, bomb everyone in ISIS held strongholds and let Allah sort it out. Its not as if the women and children who die in such an attack are innocent or anything, they’re Muslims not real people. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/51 "2017-02-03T20:57:48Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > You didn’t seem to outright dismiss a similar situation here. So what is it, is is legitimate to talk about incidental foreign deaths or not? No, I’m not saying it was a good decision, all I’m saying is that there’s not a lot of proof that it was somehow necessarily a bad decision to ok the raid. Most of the media coverage centers around the fact that one SEAL died in the course of the raid, and that seems to be the primary concern. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/52 "2017-02-03T20:59:19Z")
I have absolutely no knowledge of anything that happened during this raid, or of the planning leading up to it, nor of the roles of the principal actors involved. However, I hold Donald Trump one hundred percent personally responsible for the deaths of SEAL and all the civilians, and I take the failure of this mission as conclusive proof that he betrayed our country and, per the Constitution of the United States, deserves death by firing squad.\* Why? Because that’s how we do things now. I want to see investigations, starting right now and stopping never ever ever. If Congress won’t authorize them, then we’ll raise the funds to do it privately (in fact, I’ve sent some people over there already, and you won’t _believe_ what they’re finding!) \*Go ahead, challenge me on any of the “facts” in this post. See if it makes a difference. It won’t. I’ll just make up new ones. Because like I said, this is how we do things now. Thanks, Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/53 "2017-02-03T22:30:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > No, I’m not saying it was a good decision, all I’m saying is that there’s not a lot of proof that it was somehow necessarily a bad decision to ok the raid. > > Most of the media coverage centers around the fact that one SEAL died in the course of the raid, and that seems to be the primary concern. Colin Kahl, a security official from Obama’s admin, posted a bunch of tweets today about how the raid in Yemen was discussed by Obama’s team, but no official plan was ever produced because it was too close to the end of Obama’s term. Kahl’s twitter feed is here - [https://twitter.com/ColinKahl](https://twitter.com/ColinKahl) And the tweets are aggregated here at this salon article: > **[Former Obama official: Trump's deadly Yemen raid wasn't planned under Obama's...](https://www.salon.com/2017/02/03/former-obama-official-deadly-yemen-raid-wasnt-planned-under-obamas-watch/)** > > More and more keeps coming out about the operation in Yemen In particular, Kahl was asked about the idea that a plan for the Yemen raid had been prepared by the Obama team and stated that this was false, leading to the following exchange. **Dan Lamothe (from Wapo)** > Defense official just flatly disputed @ColinKahl’s version of events on Yemen raid. Story updated. **Colin Kahl** [https://twitter.com/ColinKahl/status/827361493956038657](https://twitter.com/ColinKahl/status/827361493956038657) If by “plans” you mean package of authorities, they were disc but no recs made & no CONOP/raid approved by Obama **Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago** I have no doubt DoD had plans, & discussed internally, but no specific CONOP/raid briefed or approved. I was in the room. Was your source? \*\* Dan Lamothe ‏@DanLamothe 19h19 hours ago\*\* @ColinKahl Was told no raid was approved by Obama, but that it was close early in January. Not true? **Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago** @DanLamothe Totally false. DoD came forward w/general request for authority to do raids, but no specific CONOP briefed to/approved by Obama \*\* Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago\*\* @DanLamothe Obama knew this was a “big piece of business” and wanted next team to run their own process. \*\* Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago\*\* @DanLamothe And Team Trump admits Trump briefed and signed off. So he can’t pass the buck. He’s president & he greenlit the op w/out process \*\* Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 18h18 hours ago\*\* @DanLamothe There was a Deputies Meeting in early Jan (I was there). General package of related authorities discussed. No recs made. **Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 18h18 hours ago** @DanLamothe Nobody in the room will tell you different. Finally, here’s Lamothe’s article about the exchange. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/02/02/pentagon-and-white-house-defend-planning-in-deadly-seal-team-raid-in-yemen/?utm\_term=.e0ff699b767c](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/02/02/pentagon-and-white-house-defend-planning-in-deadly-seal-team-raid-in-yemen/?utm_term=.e0ff699b767c) The bottom line is that Trump and Co. authorized this raid on a whim without fully studying or preparing for it. Their ongoing efforts to “Thanks, Obama!” this should be met with derision and anger. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/54 "2017-02-03T22:43:34Z")
At least the news headlines seem to be suggesting that this was not in fact a smart move: > [@](#): > > Top stories > > US military officials: Trump-ordered raid in Yemen that killed US Navy SEAL was approved ‘without sufficient intelligence’ > Business Insider · 1 day ago > > KING: Trump just got people needlessly killed in military raid > New York Daily News · 1 day ago > > Trump Gets Navy Seal Killed By Moving Forward On Operation Without Sufficient Intelligence > PoliticusUSA · 1 day ago If the bad optics about this mission help persuade Trump that he’s not on a fucking TV show anymore, and authorizing military operations without proper planning in order to look “tough” might come back to bite him, then at least SO William Owens’ sacrifice will have achieved something. ☹ :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/55 "2017-02-03T22:59:18Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > However, I hold Donald Trump one hundred percent personally responsible for the deaths of SEAL and all the civilians, and I take the failure of this mission as conclusive proof that he betrayed our country and, per the Constitution of the United States, deserves death by firing squad.\* > > Why? Because that’s how we do things now. I want to see investigations, starting right now and stopping never ever ever. So you’re saying we’re all conservatives now? That’s low. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/56 "2017-02-03T23:00:10Z")
And another thing: Trump campaigned on a platform of basically being not Obama, doing everything differently from Obama, fixing all the terrible horrible no good very bad stuff Obama did, tsk tsk, etc. etc. ad nauseam. So why is it that every time the Administration gets chastised for doing something stupidly ill-conceived they come shuffling in with their finger in their mouth, muttering _“Well it was Obama’s idea! We were just following the instructions Obama left for us!”?_ :dubious: Trying to excuse their dumb moves with the accusation that it was Obama’s idea just leaves them looking like unprepared high-schoolers desperately pawing through a previous-year student’s homework for something they can rip out of context and pass off as their own. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/57 "2017-02-03T23:22:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re saying we’re all conservatives now? That’s low. I don’t know that there’s anything “conservative” about the post-truth strategy, at least not in the original sense of the word. The Republican Party has employed it with great success (_depended_ on it for their success, really), but that doesn’t mean they’re the only ones who can do it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/58 "2017-02-03T23:32:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Trying to excuse their dumb moves with the accusation that it was Obama’s idea just leaves them looking like unprepared high-schoolers desperately pawing through a previous-year student’s homework for something they can rip out of context and pass off as their own. Well that does seem to be how this whole bunch of plagiarizing clowns has gotten though life so far - ripping off other people’s ideas, words and/or building projects. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/59 "2017-02-03T23:52:18Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Colin Kahl, a security official from Obama’s admin, posted a bunch of tweets today about how the raid in Yemen was discussed by Obama’s team, but no official plan was ever produced because it was too close to the end of Obama’s term. > > Kahl’s twitter feed is here - > [x.com](https://twitter.com/ColinKahl) > And the tweets are aggregated here at this salon article: > [http://www.salon.com/2017/02/03/former-obama-official-deadly-yemen-raid-wasnt-planned-under-obamas-watch/](http://www.salon.com/2017/02/03/former-obama-official-deadly-yemen-raid-wasnt-planned-under-obamas-watch/) > In particular, Kahl was asked about the idea that a plan for the Yemen raid had been prepared by the Obama team and stated that this was false, leading to the following exchange. > > **Dan Lamothe (from Wapo)** > [x.com](https://twitter.com/DanLamothe/status/827351440901472261) > > Defense official just flatly disputed @ColinKahl’s version of events on Yemen raid. Story updated. > **Colin Kahl** > [x.com](https://twitter.com/ColinKahl/status/827361493956038657) > If by “plans” you mean package of authorities, they were disc but no recs made & no CONOP/raid approved by Obama > **Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago** > > I have no doubt DoD had plans, & discussed internally, but no specific CONOP/raid briefed or approved. I was in the room. Was your source? > > \*\* Dan Lamothe ‏@DanLamothe 19h19 hours ago\*\* > > @ColinKahl Was told no raid was approved by Obama, but that it was close early in January. Not true? > > **Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago** > > @DanLamothe Totally false. DoD came forward w/general request for authority to do raids, but no specific CONOP briefed to/approved by Obama > > \*\* > Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago\*\* > > @DanLamothe Obama knew this was a “big piece of business” and wanted next team to run their own process. > \*\* Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 19h19 hours ago\*\* > > @DanLamothe And Team Trump admits Trump briefed and signed off. So he can’t pass the buck. He’s president & he greenlit the op w/out process > \*\* Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 18h18 hours ago\*\* > > @DanLamothe There was a Deputies Meeting in early Jan (I was there). General package of related authorities discussed. No recs made. > **Colin Kahl ‏@ColinKahl 18h18 hours ago** > > @DanLamothe Nobody in the room will tell you different. > > Finally, here’s Lamothe’s article about the exchange. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/02/02/pentagon-and-white-house-defend-planning-in-deadly-seal-team-raid-in-yemen/?utm\_term=.e0ff699b767c](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/02/02/pentagon-and-white-house-defend-planning-in-deadly-seal-team-raid-in-yemen/?utm_term=.e0ff699b767c) > The bottom line is that Trump and Co. authorized this raid on a whim without fully studying or preparing for it. Their ongoing efforts to “Thanks, Obama!” this should be met with derision and anger. No matter what else is said, it was his decision, and they acted on his orders. He gave the order. So he gets whatever credit or blame goes with that. If he can’t handle the pressure he can get the fuck out. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896/60 "2017-02-04T00:14:24Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > No matter what else is said, it was his decision, and they acted on his orders. He gave the order. So he gets whatever credit or blame goes with that. If he can’t handle the pressure he can get the fuck out. > > End of story. I think it’s pretty clear that if he can’t handle the pressure, he blames Obama. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-talk-about-trumps-bungled-adventure-in-yemen/778896.md?page=4)