# No-tell Motel of Sidekicks Unspoiled Heroes Mafia Thread (Players Stay Out!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 15, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680 "2011-01-15T03:35:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/101 "2011-01-31T22:50:34Z")
Oh I hope I’m right about Storyteller being scum, because goodness. The case against Wolverine is not complicated. I’ve read about every third post at best and I can comprehend it. It hardly needs a “re-read”; it could be handled and decided on in ten minutes. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/102 "2011-02-01T00:06:40Z")
I really don’t think it’s fair to allow someone who is being openly hostile to play. I know **Meeko** was having a few problems for a bit, but at least his was always a small blowup and was followed by realizing that he messed up. He has a desire to fix himself. **Ushi** shows no such predilection. So I suggest that he be either banned from playing again for a while, or at least put on a short leash, where being remotely hostile will get him swapped out. Obviously, it’s your game, and you guys can do what you want. But I have a feeling **ushi** will not calm down unless there are consequences to his actions. Right now he’s skating by because it would be bad play to lynch him. I have to admit this particularly pisses me off because this is one of the biggest reasons I don’t play. I know I have a predilection to get angry when people accuse me of stuff. So maybe it bugs me more than the rest of you. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/103 "2011-02-01T01:44:25Z")
Well, accusing people of stuff is kind of the point of the game. I agree that the way ushi has handled things has been sub-optimal, but I can’t help but bring up the fact that special ed fired the first volley. (Actually I should amend that. I’m assuming that special ed started it as I recall special ed being overly harsh with ushi early in the game. Now that I think about it and see ushi being quite abrasive himself, it’s also possible that special ed was reacting to ushi. I’d have to check that, but I’m not going to) Anyway, if special ed dug into ushi first, then I’d be willing to be more forgiving. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/104 "2011-02-01T02:13:29Z")
I don’t think it matters who started it–at this point, it’s a distraction to Town, and regardless of his alignment it’s probably best that he’s gone. He’s claimed VT since Day One, so his loss, if he’s truthful, will be no big deal. I’ve had my moments of getting really pissed off at accusations, but I have always been able to separate the game from the players and not make things personal. I think that’s where the line is being crossed here. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/105 "2011-02-01T14:51:47Z")
Super curious about Wolverine now, due to: > [@](#): > > The thing that does concern me is that Pants was very vocal at the beginning and much quieter now, much like he’s being coached. I’ve literally never seen that argument (about being coached) from a town player. I’ve seen it at least four times from scum. Oh, I want spoilers. Must. resist. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/106 "2011-02-01T14:52:35Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Well, accusing people of stuff is kind of the point of the game. > > I agree that the way ushi has handled things has been sub-optimal, but I can’t help but bring up the fact that special ed fired the first volley. (Actually I should amend that. I’m assuming that special ed started it as I recall special ed being overly harsh with ushi early in the game. Now that I think about it and see ushi being quite abrasive himself, it’s also possible that special ed was reacting to ushi. I’d have to check that, but I’m not going to) > Anyway, if special ed dug into ushi first, then I’d be willing to be more forgiving. it depends on how you define who started it. ushi oringally posted that he was vt - unprovoked. ed “bitchslapped” him and then we were off to the races. now maybe he truly took afront at the “bitchslap” but his subsequent comments and condescending tone make it more likely that he is just a jerk through and through. additionally for those of us who have played together for a while getting “bitchslapped” or having our intelligence or reasonaing powers being questioned is kind of par for the course. and i don’t know if this an appropriate analogy but here goes. if you are invited to someone’s house for the first time and you don’t like the appetizers do you fire off with “these suck”. but after you have been to the same person’s house umpteen times over many years it seems not as out of line to say “these suck”. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/107 "2011-02-01T15:40:01Z")
I agree. I was just pointing out that someone was abrasive to ushi first, which isn’t to excuse him, but to provide context. If someone wanders in and suddenly gets ‘bitchslapped,’ I can see that blurring the lines regarding appropriate behavior. It’s still inappropriate, but perhaps slightly more understandable. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/108 "2011-02-01T16:20:28Z")
I’m sort of on storyteller’s side on this one. The only thing storyteller has done that I question is his bizarre claim. On one hand, Townies love to overshare while Scum tend to be stingy. But I think storyteller is experienced enough to know that his claim doesn’t buy Town anything. It also doesn’t buy himself anything, so I’m left wondering why he did it. I can’t think of a Town reason, I can’t think of a scum reason, so I guess I should ignore it. storyteller is also falling into his typical behavior of accusing whoever makes a case against him as being scum. He does this often… like clockwork. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/109 "2011-02-01T17:13:52Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > storyteller is also falling into his typical behavior of accusing whoever makes a case against him as being scum. He does this often… like clockwork. I’m beginning to come around to the idea that OMGUS votes are more of a Town tell than a Scum tell. The last game I played I was catching heat from a lot of players and I was Town. It was very hard for me to keep an open mind about these people since they were clearly lying and/or misinterpreting me. When you’re Town, it’s hard to remember that this other person accusing you (falsely, of course) might just be Town as well. **NAF1138** was so freaking scummy about his “cases” against me, I was 100% convinced he was scum. I was wrong. I think \*\*Astral’s \*\*case against \*\*Scuba Ben \*\*is better than the case on **storyteller**. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/110 "2011-02-01T20:10:39Z")
I disagree with storyteller’s assessment that any player interested in winning would choose scum in Cookies’s situation. If I were in Cookies situation I’d have selected Town. (1) I play better as Town. I’ve hardly ever been scum. I simply don’t know how to do it well. (2) 5 dead Townies to 1 dead scum isn’t all that lopsided. It is equivalent to 2 mislynches versus one correct lynch. (3) 4 of the Dead Townies are vanilla. That means there is high probability Town Power roles with relevant data. I can easily see Cookies choosing Town. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/111 "2011-02-01T21:15:48Z")
I would not hold storyteller’s SP/ushi ‘mistake’ against him. What SP is proposing is that scummy storyteller has missed that Astral is misrepresenting him. I’m not sure if I buy that. From storyteller’s perspective it is true that he asked others to unvote ushi. That SP himself was not in this set isn’t particularly relevant IMO and I can easily see storyteller missing that point regardless of his being Town or Scum. If Astral could ‘miss’ it when making a case, I can see storyteller missing it too. I would not be surprised at all if storyteller responded to Astral point by point without actually re-reading his own posts. I know I’d do that. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/112 "2011-02-01T21:28:20Z")
I don’t care, I still think Storyteller is not-town. I’m massively enjoying this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/113 "2011-02-01T21:42:59Z")
Could be. I like Astral’s follow up better. It isn’t so much _what_ storyteller did, but the _way_ he did it. That I could possibly get behind, but I’m a hard facts kind of guy so _what_ ends up being more salient to me than anything else (to my detriment). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/114 "2011-02-02T16:49:51Z")
Another sub? I’m glad I’m out, because I hate keeping track of substitutions. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/115 "2011-02-03T05:49:14Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Another sub? I’m glad I’m out, because I hate keeping track of substitutions. I assume Mahaloth has a good reason for not subbing him out, but doesn’t want to explain himself because it would affect the game state. I also hope he PM’d Scuba to tell him. IOW, I hope it’s not just for the reason you are giving. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/116 "2011-02-03T06:04:05Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I agree. I was just pointing out that someone was abrasive to ushi first, which isn’t to excuse him, but to provide context. If someone wanders in and suddenly gets ‘bitchslapped,’ I can see that blurring the lines regarding appropriate behavior. It’s still inappropriate, but perhaps slightly more understandable. I don’t have a problem understanding. I just have a problem accepting. He got hut by the bitchslap, and got mad. When people called him out on it, that made him more mad. So now he’s mad at everyone. Instead of quitting, he sticks around, perhaps even because he’s mad, and doesn’t want to do what those people he’s mad at want. I think that, if you are so mad as to continually act jerkish to the other players, you need to back out of the game. Ed understands this, even if what he did wasn’t in any way out of line, and I’ve honestly never seen him be a jerk. And this isn’t personal: the reason I brought up **Meeko** is that I consider him as much a friend as you can get in a message board like this. If he had gotten angry and stayed that way, I’d have made the same suggestion to him. I just think it’s a good idea to provide consequences for unwanted behavior. You should probably first try being as gentle as you can, but you’ve got to make sure the message has gotten across. ETA: He wasn’t out of line since the word bitchslap was obviously used in jest, like it usually is online. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/117 "2011-02-03T16:54:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I assume Mahaloth has a good reason for not subbing him out, but doesn’t want to explain himself because it would affect the game state. I also hope he PM’d Scuba to tell him. As a moderator, that is why I do not do substitutions (or enforce participation, or have post restrictions, or answer rules questions in-thread). It requires the moderator to make a judgement based on the state of the game. Such judgements should be minimized because it can result in players trying to read the mind of the moderator, rather than playing against the other players. It’s better to let players use an in-game solution to address in-game problems. As a player, I find substitutions to be anti-game. It makes it harder to get a read on a role. It makes it harder to keep track of votes. Players need to commit to playing when they sign up. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/118 "2011-02-03T19:21:49Z")
Oh, so Storyteller now admits that his claim was purely for the purpose of getting heat off him. Which is of course what it looked like in the first place. So a pre-emptive claim, for the express purpose of not getting lynched, which reveals no new information, refuses to commit itself to anything going forward, and cannot be disproved. How very townie. (Seriously, Storyteller, on the off chance you are town and you read this afterwards, PLEASE explain why the town wasn’t supposed to come to the exact conclusion that I have based on your actions. I can no good townie rationale for this. Town powers who’ve made unfortunate mistakes should want to get heat, so they can then slam the claim at everyone and make hay out of the reactions. This looks like pure self-preservation = not town.) ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/119 "2011-02-03T20:45:47Z")
On that point I agree. Claiming because you anticipate to be in hot water so that your claim carries more weight doesn’t seem very proTown at all. Then again, why would a scummy storyteller _admit_ it? I’m all around baffled. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680/120 "2011-02-03T21:13:56Z")
On thing in storyteller’s favor is that it seems he had the power to double vote. Personally, I think double scum votes are a very bad idea while double Town votes are less problematic. However, I don’t know Mahaloth’s opinion on this matter. And even if Mahaloth agreed, allowing a conventional wisdom that extra votes == Town is something that undermines the game itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tell-motel-of-sidekicks-unspoiled-heroes-mafia-thread-players-stay-out/567680.md?page=7)