# No Tennesee Williams for you!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693 "2004-12-02T14:28:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/41 "2004-12-02T21:18:18Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > _I’d_ consider it a leap, since the characters meet at the beginning of the play, when they have a chance encounter with each other and Eliza, the flower girl, with her atrocious Cockney accent: > > Pickering: I am myself a student of Indian dialects; and– > > Higgins: [eagerly] Are you? Do you know Colonel Pickering, the author of _Spoken Sanscrit_? > > P: I am Colonel Pickering. Who are you? > > H: Henry Higgins, author of _Higgins’s Universal Alphabet_. > > P: [with enthusiasm] I came from India to meet you. > > H: I was going to India to meet you. > I’m not sure how it came about that two intelligent male characters, or an intelligent male character reluctant to pursue a romantic relationship with a woman, has to have a homosexual subtext. The song _Why Can’t a Woman be More Like a Man?_ suggests irritation to me, not homosexuality. Higgins: Eliza… not all men are…_confirmed bachelors_ like me and the Colonel. Most men are the marrying sort. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/42 "2004-12-02T21:20:30Z")
Great idea, **Lib**! Since [every](http://www.aafp.org/afp/990315ap/1577.html) mother in America is clearly capable and willing to make only the best choices concerning their children, your plan will work perfectly! ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/43 "2004-12-02T21:22:35Z")
Sorry for the Hijack: > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > _I’d_ consider it a leap, since the characters meet at the beginning of the play, when they have a chance encounter with each other and Eliza, the flower girl, with her atrocious Cockney accent: > > Pickering: I am myself a student of Indian dialects; and– > > Higgins: [eagerly] Are you? Do you know Colonel Pickering, the author of _Spoken Sanscrit_? > > P: I am Colonel Pickering. Who are you? > > H: Henry Higgins, author of _Higgins’s Universal Alphabet_. > > P: [with enthusiasm] I came from India to meet you. > > H: I was going to India to meet you. > I’m not sure how it came about that two intelligent male characters, or an intelligent male character reluctant to pursue a romantic relationship with a woman, has to have a homosexual subtext. The song _Why Can’t a Woman be More Like a Man?_ suggests irritation to me, not homosexuality. Higgins also insists that Pickering come to live with him (even though Pickering is very wealthy and could live anywhere he chose). Higgins’s mother is thoroughly excited when she thinks he has a girlfriend and dashed when he tells her “No! She’s a common flower girl.” Higgins never once mentions an even remotely romantic interest in Liza or any other woman, sings one song to the virtue of men and another on the perils of letting a woman into your life, and attempts to comfort Eliza by saying Higgins: Eliza… not all men are…_confirmed bachelors_ like me and the Colonel. Most men are the marrying sort. While none of this is quite on a par with _Lucky Lukas_, the play could _easily_ be played in such a way that Transylvania’s isn’t the only queen at the ball. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/44 "2004-12-02T21:25:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yes, of course they do. But if my child has a right to your money, would you please send some this way? She’s studying fashion design, and aced her recent algebra test. I paid in April. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/45 "2004-12-02T21:27:42Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Now that we have discussed the purpose of public education, all-drag musicals, the statutory code of Alabama, and the fall of Rome I Mean America, may I just say that perhaps it is time to eliminate so-called public education and allow parents to decide for themselves how their children should be educated. This is the second time you’ve mentioned this idea, and you still haven’t explained how this doesn’t lead inevitably to an gigantic uneducated and illiterate underclass. If the state does not provide free education to everyone, how do any but the wealthiest afford to educate their children or themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/46 "2004-12-02T21:30:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yes, of course they do. But if my child has a right to your money, would you please send some this way? She’s studying fashion design, and aced her recent algebra test. I would not object to some of my taxes subsidizing college education. I consider it an investment in the society I live in. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/47 "2004-12-02T21:31:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I paid in April. You paid for limousines and haircuts and expense account lunches. I want you to put your money in an envelope and mail it to my daughter. She has a right to it, so you say. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/48 "2004-12-02T21:35:33Z")
I said she has a right to an education. I have already paid for that education. If you have a problem with how tax money is administrated your argument is with someone else. Personally. I think we need to put more money into education and that means we need to tax the crap out of rich people. I personally believe that there is no such thing as a right to unlimited wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/49 "2004-12-02T21:35:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is the second time you’ve mentioned this idea, and you still haven’t explained how this doesn’t lead inevitably to an gigantic uneducated and illiterate underclass. If the state does not provide free education to everyone, how do any but the wealthiest afford to educate their children or themselves? I think you have confused schooling with education, and that you have not yet explained how it can be that after trillions of dollars spent by the Department of Education, [25% of Americans think the Sun revolves around the Earth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=288251). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/50 "2004-12-02T21:36:19Z")
Dear God but think what this does to [The Alabama Shakespeare Festival](http://asf.net), a state subsidized complex commonly considered one of the best repertory theaters in the world (or, if you prefer, “the Pearl on the collar of the Gerbil in the Asshole of America”). Shakespeare’s characters include murderers, statuatory rapists, thieves, adulterers, traitors, fugitives from justice and many other violators of the Alabama Penal Code- and _those are just the good guys_! I’ve seen several plays there with openly gay characters portrayed or mentioned (_Blues for an Alabama Sky_, _Fair & Tender Ladies_, _Idols of the King_, _Steel Magnolias_, etc.) and in none of those was any Godly attempt to show them as deserving of death made, and I’ve seen plays there that promoted drug use (_Ain’t Misbehavin’_), illegal gambling (_Guys & Dolls_), the occult (_Camelot_), hate crimes (_All God’s Dangers_)- hell, the place is basically a huge brick “Joy of Gay Sex and Other Vices” park. Then there’s GONE WITH THE WIND, which can never again be shown or read in a public school as it portrays in a positive light characters who own slaves, murder, rob (rob a corpse in fact), marry their first cousins, support or engage in prostitution, etc… _Fiddler On the Roof_ can’t be shown as it’s about a man who attempts to force his underaged daughters into sexual unions against their will and forbids miscegenation (which is legal in Alabama and has been ever since way back in 2000), _Death of a Salesman_ promotes suicide (a crime in all states), _Dracula_ (promotes vigilantism), _Arsenic & Old Laces_ (a family containing three mass murderers? Puh-leez!), _The Music Man_ (the main character is a confidence artist)- exactly what _will_ be able to be produced on stage if this passes, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/51 "2004-12-02T21:49:12Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …exactly what _will_ be able to be produced on stage if this passes, I wonder? [Behold the Lamb](http://www.bibleonstage.com/showhome.asp?showid=2). And yes, that is about five miles from my house. They had a huge musical production of _NOAH!_ (yes, the capital letter and punctuation are in the original title) going for about three years. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/52 "2004-12-02T21:56:25Z")
**Liberal:** _you have not yet explained how it can be that after trillions of dollars spent by the Department of Education, 25% of Americans think the Sun revolves around the Earth._ But does anybody really believe that the stats on such measures of mass ignorance would be better without the state funding universal education? We’ve got a lot higher literacy rate now than we did back in the more libertarian nineteenth century, that’s for sure. AFAICT, you’re using the defects of the current system to argue that we should adopt a worse one. Moving on from the public education hijack to the _My Fair Lady_ hijack: **Sampiro:** \* Higgins never once mentions an even remotely romantic interest in Liza or any other woman\* Remember, though, that _MFL_ is based on the play _Pygmalion_ by George Bernard Shaw, who did a lot of unconventional characters. Also recall that Eliza, a lower-class working woman, is actually living under Higgins’ roof unchaperoned by any woman except his housekeeper, herself not his social equal. If Higgins had expressed any romantic interest in Eliza, it would have suggested the possibility of an improper liaison where he exploited her sexually (as Eliza’s own father assumes to be the case). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/53 "2004-12-02T21:59:59Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think you have confused schooling with education… Perhaps I have. Could you explain the difference? > [@](#): > > …and that you have not yet explained how it can be that after trillions of dollars spent by the Department of Education, [25% of Americans think the Sun revolves around the Earth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=288251). And getting rid of public education will make that number smaller? ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/54 "2004-12-02T22:01:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And getting rid of public education will make that number smaller? Yes. Only the people who know how to read will be able to answer the test questions. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/55 "2004-12-02T22:02:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Remember, though, that _MFL_ is based on the play _Pygmalion_ by George Bernard Shaw, who did a lot of unconventional characters. Also recall that Eliza, a lower-class working woman, is actually living under Higgins’ roof unchaperoned by any woman except his housekeeper, herself not his social equal. If Higgins had expressed any romantic interest in Eliza, it would have suggested the possibility of an improper liaison where he exploited her sexually (as Eliza’s own father assumes to be the case). But remember also that only recently did they restore the scene to _Pygmalion_ in which Higgins ask his new Greek slave (played by Tony Curtis) “Do you consider the easting of oysters to be moral, and the eating of snails to be immoral?..My taste includes both snails and oysters” as said slave bathes him. Oh wait— sorry, I’m thinking about the restored version of _It’s a Wonderful Life_. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/56 "2004-12-02T22:04:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > But remember also that only recently did they restore the scene to _Pygmalion_ in which Higgins ask his new Greek slave (played by Tony Curtis) “Do you consider the easting of oysters to be moral, and the eating of snails to be immoral?..My taste includes both snails and oysters” as said slave bathes him. > > Oh wait— sorry, I’m thinking about the restored version of _It’s a Wonderful Life_. No, no. That’s the Wizard of Oz. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/57 "2004-12-02T22:07:24Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > No, no. That’s the Wizard of Oz. _“No, Aunt Em, this was a real truly live place and I remember some of it wasn’t very nice, but most of it was beautiful–but just the same all I kept saying to everybody was “I want to go home” before little Bernie Schwartz takes one up the tuchis!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/58 "2004-12-02T22:09:55Z")
BTW, if _Cat On A Hot Tin Roof_ gets these people up in arms, imagine what would happen if they saw an elementary school production of _Suddenly, Last Summer_. Miss Smithers 5th grade class presents: _Suddenly, Last Summer_. Catherine: “Oh, it was horrible! They descended on him like, like a pack of animals!” Oh, look at our Mary, she seems so grown up playing Catherine! Oh, look at little Robert playing Sebastian! He makes such a good little queer, and his impression of being eaten alive was pretty convinceing for an eleven year old, don’t you think, honey? ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/59 "2004-12-02T22:21:15Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > You’re going to have to explain how “Cat On A Hot Tin Roof” (in college, no less) stuffs homosexuality down people’s throats. Or how depiction of homosexuality in literature, plays and films promotes that life choice in any way. If anything it promotes tolerance. That can only be a good thing . . . unless you live in Talibama. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693/60 "2004-12-02T22:26:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is the second time you’ve mentioned this idea, and you still haven’t explained how this doesn’t lead inevitably to an gigantic uneducated and illiterate underclass. If the state does not provide free education to everyone, how do any but the wealthiest afford to educate their children or themselves? A wizard does it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-tennesee-williams-for-you/277693.md?page=4)