# No thanks, I'll take my chances with the psychopath. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135 "2012-07-23T14:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/61 "2012-07-23T17:15:47Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Most people who legally carry concealed firearms have had, at the least,\* a minimum of training\*. That, right there, is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/62 "2012-07-23T17:20:17Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > That, right there, is the problem. Again, if you’re being shot, and you’re armed, I only see 2 options. One seems far better than the other to me. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/63 "2012-07-23T17:20:48Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Let’s be fair and relate it to my comment. Would any of you who were currently being fired at whip out your weapon and fire back? It’s a movie theatre. It’s dark, it’s loud, and it’s smoky. The guy is walking up and down isles spraying bullets. It would be quite hard to get a good shot at him. The greater chance is that you’re going to miss. I’d like to see if those macho guys who would’ve taken down the killer would’ve been OK diving over women and children or helping them with their injuries while the freakjob ran loose. That, imho, is a hero. There were military in the audience and some of them died. That did a lot of good. The officers responding didn’t shoot, either, but he surrendered. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/64 "2012-07-23T17:21:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s hear from former(or current) military, then. Would any of you have whipped out your weapon in a crowded smoke-filled theatre and started firing at the gunman? If there was more than one gunman firing(assuming that you were not the only one reacting), how would you decide who to shoot at? Let me first say that I’ve never been in a situation similar to the attack, and I don’t know what I’d do - or be capable of doing - if I were. This is purely a theoretical solution. Also, I’ve never fired anything smaller than an uzi, and I know little about handguns and what they’re capable of. That said, I can think of two possible responses to the case at hand. Neither involve just standing and shooting - that’s not the way the military does things. What I can do is… 1. Keep low, and try to improve my position. Crawl or crouch-run to where I have a clear shot. Maybe find a way out of the room, come back and flank him. Or maybe just get into a position where I can… 2. Wait for him to reload, and rush him. With all the smoke and the dark and the noise, the shooter will be almost as blind as I am. If I’m lucky, he won’t be able to get enough shots off - fired at random - to hit me, and I’ll be able to tackle him, get my weapon against his head, and shoot. Maybe I’ll fire some shots into the ceiling during my charge, to disorient him and put him on the defensive. I certainly won’t shoot in his direction when there are civilians in my line of fire. Again, this is purely theoretical. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/65 "2012-07-23T17:21:53Z")
I’ve got a CHL in Texas. The “minimal training” you get is about one step up from “this is the business end. It’s where the bullet comes out”. Concealed carry training (at least in Texas) is a joke and pretty much an NRA recruiting seminar. Based on what I’ve observed from about 50-60 people taking the practical portion of their CHL exam, I would trust maybe 5-6 to do much more than hit the side of a barn. And if it’s one of those massive 400 people screening rooms, I’d not rely on the accuracy of most of the small pocket guns that are popular for concealing. They’re often not too accurate past 5 yards, especially when hopped up on adrenaline. My own reaction, even under fire, would not be to confuse the situation. If the guy next to me pulled a gun to return fire, my own first reaction would be to tackle him and secure the weapon. How do you differentiate between accomplices and “helpful” citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/66 "2012-07-23T17:27:45Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Again, if you’re being shot, and you’re armed, I only see 2 options. One seems far better than the other to me. Again, what if you accidentally hit one or more innocent bystanders, or cause the initial shooter to hit even more innocent bystanders while he fires back at you? There are people running around you and you’ve been blinded by a horrendous muzzle-flash, and the _only_ choices that come to mind are to just lie there or fire back into the chaos? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/67 "2012-07-23T17:29:40Z")
I would shoot my gun just one time so that it ricocheted off the walls and speakers and projector glass and into the bad guy’s weak point. Oh yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/68 "2012-07-23T17:30:25Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Again, if you’re being shot, and you’re armed, I only see 2 options. One seems far better than the other to me. Whipping out your [del]dick[/del] gun and firing back is very unlikely to give you the result you want. As others have said (and which you can’t seem to understand), you’d be making the situation _worse_, not better. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/69 "2012-07-23T17:31:23Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I took a defensive driving course in high school; that’s why I’m confident I could win the Indy 500 any time I want. Not a good analogy. This case is more, if you don’t drive yourself to the hospital you are going to die. Do you start the car? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@Mister\_Owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Owl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/70 "2012-07-23T17:31:37Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The little girl with the calculus book, obviously. This is the best post in this entire thread. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/71 "2012-07-23T17:32:19Z")
Amen to the OP and it’s defenders. I still would like to see the answer to the question, “If you end up shooting innocent people in your quest to subdue the original shooter, then what?” I don’t think simply apologizing will help, especially if you, more than likely, didn’t do one bit of harm to said psycho. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/72 "2012-07-23T17:33:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, what if you accidentally hit one or more innocent bystanders, or cause the initial shooter to hit even more innocent bystanders while he fires back at you? There are people running around you and you’ve been blinded by a horrendous muzzle-flash, and the _only_ choices that come to mind are to just lie there or fire back into the chaos? You seem to be picturing some guy reaching over the top of a seat firing blindly in the shooters direction. I’m not suggesting that is any acceptable response. You fire when you have an identified target and a clear shot. If he can see you to shoot you, most likely he’s also in your line of sight. If not, you move until you can escape or you can return fire safely. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/73 "2012-07-23T17:33:48Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I would shoot my gun just one time so that it ricocheted off the walls and speakers and projector glass and into the bad guy’s weak point. > > Oh yeah. Thank you, Sam Axe. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/74 "2012-07-23T17:34:09Z")
Geeze people, in every TV show and movie I’ve seen it’s very clear who the bad guy is. You aren’t implying almost every action movie and TV show aren’t 100 percent accurate, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/75 "2012-07-23T17:35:48Z")
Regarding the asinine “Fire at the muzzle-flash” scenario-if the guy is moving around the crowded theatre while firing at people, then firing back at where the flash _was_ is very likely going to add to the list of victims. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/76 "2012-07-23T17:38:48Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You fire when you have an identified target and a clear shot. If he can see you to shoot you, most likely he’s also in your line of sight. If not, you move until you can escape or you can return fire safely. I don’t think anybody’s arguing that. But that doesn’t seem to be the point you were putting forth. And the nice, clean scenario you describe here is not what was reality. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/77 "2012-07-23T17:40:38Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You seem to be picturing some guy reaching over the top of a seat firing blindly in the shooters direction. I’m not suggesting that is any acceptable response. > You fire when you have an identified target and a clear shot. If he can see you to shoot you, most likely he’s also in your line of sight. If not, you move until you can escape or you can return fire safely. _He_ is firing into a large crowd for maximum effect (not just at you), and _you_ have been blinded by muzzle-flash, confused by smoke grenades and people panicking all round you and very likely to jump into your “line of sight” at any given second. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/78 "2012-07-23T17:43:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Regarding the asinine “Fire at the muzzle-flash” scenario-if the guy is moving around the crowded theatre while firing at people, then firing back at where the flash _was_ is very likely going to add to the list of victims. I’d suggest you not go to movies in crowded theaters. I’m willing to bet if you and your family were in one, and a shooter was firing, you’d be thinking “I hope someone shoots that bastard before he gets to my family.” ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/79 "2012-07-23T17:44:50Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’d suggest you not go to movies in crowded theaters. I’m willing to bet if you and your family were in one, and a shooter was firing, you’d be thinking “I hope someone shoots that bastard before he gets to my family.” Maybe, but I’d also be thinking “I hope some out-of-control yahoo doesn’t shoot me trying to prove himself a hero.” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135/80 "2012-07-23T17:48:36Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > **Czarcasm** , Seriously, are you being deliberately obtuse? He’s not, but you sure as shit are. You ignore posts that call you on your bullshit and continue to spout utter nonsense. Fucking moron. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-thanks-ill-take-my-chances-with-the-psychopath/629135.md?page=5)