# No, the free market will not protect civil rights (or 'why the Civil Rights Act is still needed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982 "2014-02-10T16:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/181 "2014-02-12T21:28:55Z")
Terr, weren’t you the very person bragging in another thread about how the Duck Dynasty show as doing perfectly fine despite the bigoted and dangerous viewpoints of the people on it? If so, doesn’t that blow your entire point of how the market will protect people out of the water? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/182 "2014-02-12T21:48:56Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Consider this scenario: a group of Muslims enters a bakery and wants to order a cake, which is to be decorated with > [quotes] > ([Domestic violence in Islam : The Quran on wife-beating](http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm)) from the Koran and Hadiths advocating violence against women, or homosexuals, or something like that. Should the baker have the right to discriminate against these customers by not producing the cake that they want? Or do these customers have the right to force any such business to serve them? I’m late to the party, but I needed to respond to this scenario. My quick scan makes me think it wasn’t addressed, but I’m not sure. Anyway, there is a big difference between refusing a customer because of who the customer is and refusing to accommodate a custom order. The hypothetical Muslims should be welcome to order any item on the menu. The baker is not discriminating against Muslims. Being a baker does not mean one has to bake everything and anything. Now if that baker happily made anti-women cakes for Christian customers, but refused to make anti-women cakes for Muslims, then there would be a problem. As a counter example, if I were to walk down the block and ask the bakery there to make me a cake covered with penises and vaginas, I’m pretty sure they would refuse. They would not be discriminating against me. (And before you go on a weird tangent about same-sex wedding cakes; I’ll point out that gay and lesbian couples do not buy same-sex wedding cakes. They buy wedding cakes for a same-sex marriage.) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/183 "2014-02-12T22:01:13Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Terr, weren’t you the very person bragging in another thread about how the Duck Dynasty show as doing perfectly fine despite the bigoted and dangerous viewpoints of the people on it? > > If so, doesn’t that blow your entire point of how the market will protect people out of the water? “Protect” them from hearing views they don’t like? No, the market will not protect people from that. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/184 "2014-02-12T22:05:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Protect” them from hearing views they don’t like? No, the market will not protect people from that. Gosh, I didn’t say that. So I’m going to ask you flat-out: Does the market actually discourage bigotry by making it unprofitable (and thus chik fil a and duck dynasty are suffering) or does it not (which means they’re doing fine) ? Or do you feel there are only certain forms of bigotry that market will discourage? What sorts of bigotry would those be? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/185 "2014-02-12T22:15:47Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Anyway, there is a big difference between refusing a customer because of who the customer is and refusing to accommodate a custom order. The hypothetical Muslims should be welcome to order any item on the menu. The baker is not discriminating against Muslims. Being a baker does not mean one has to bake everything and anything. I’m not sure that reasoning holds up under current law. If a baker offers to make cakes with a message of the customer’s choice, then refusing to make a cake with a Koran verse on top certainly seems like it might run afoul of the law. There was [a case](http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=14190) in Lexington Kentucky of a T-shirt printer refusing to print T-shirts for the local gay pride parade, and they faced legal action. (This case dealt with a local law, not the CRA.) The director of the Human Rights Commission says that a company can refuse to print a certain message but not to print for a certain group of people; however, it’s unclear exactly where the border between the two lies, and he acknowledges a “gray area”. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/186 "2014-02-12T23:36:58Z")
As an aside, the Kansas House of Representatives today passed a bill (H.B. 2453) that says, in part: > [@](#): > > Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no individual or religious entity shall be required by any governmental entity to do any of the following, if it would be contrary to the sincerely held religious beliefs of the individual or religious entity regarding sex or gender: > > (a) Provide any services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges; provide counseling, adoption, foster care and other social services; or provide employment or employment benefits, related to, or related to the celebration of, any marriage, domestic partnership, civil union or similar arrangement; > (b) solemnize any marriage, domestic partnership, civil union or similar arrangement; or > (c) treat any marriage, domestic partnership, civil union or similar arrangement as valid. The bill passed 72-49. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/187 "2014-02-12T23:43:41Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Gosh, I didn’t say that. So I’m going to ask you flat-out: > > Does the market actually discourage bigotry by making it unprofitable (and thus chik fil a and duck dynasty are suffering) or does it not (which means they’re doing fine)? Your question is of the “have you stopped beating your wife?” variety, and presupposes that duck dynasty and chik fil a are bigoted. I reject that. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/188 "2014-02-13T00:01:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your question is of the “have you stopped beating your wife?” variety, and presupposes that duck dynasty and chik fil a are bigoted. I reject that. Chik Fil A donated money to groups that want homosexuality punishable by death in some countries. You don’t think it’s bigoted. Yes, I don’t think _anyone_ cares what your opinions on civil rights are. You are doing nothing but proving the point of this thread - that laws are necessary to protect people, because there will always be others wanting to do them harm. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/189 "2014-02-13T00:04:02Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Chik Fil A donated money to groups that try to make homosexuality punishable by death in some countries. I am sure it’s not quite as clear cut as that, but what do “other countries” have to do with the subject under discussion? I didn’t think US laws reached that far. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/190 "2014-02-13T00:09:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am sure it’s not quite as clear cut as that, but what do “other countries” have to do with the subject under discussion? I didn’t think US laws reached that far. The idea is that Chik Fil A was directly tied to bigots who want to see gay people dead, and pushed / celebrated for homosexuality to be punishable by death in places they know they could get away with it. The market _supported_ this. People ran out to show how much they were OK with it, and how DARE people boycott them for something silly like “opposing the murder of innocents”. These are also some of the same groups who cheer at laws that would cause homosexuals to be killed that get defended by Fox News as “typical christians”, and gee, they seem to get away with it - basically by defending the equivalent of the KKK, and somehow they seem to do fine. Pandering to these bigots would not be punished in the markets, as Republicans have shown. They are more than happy to support hateful, dangerous people, just because they are hateful and dangerous. To think that a company would suffer if it decided to stop serving protected groups is pretty silly, when there’s evidence that companies thrive and can even market themselves by supporting people who want to _kill_ others. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/191 "2014-02-13T00:14:29Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What you are missing is that without the CRA, the law defaults back to the whole “We may refuse service to anyone” for any reason including racist reasons. > > So, our bigoted lunch counter owner may invite the public in. When white customers come, he may serve them. When black customers come, he may refuse service to them and ask them to leave. At the moment they have been asked (read: told) to leave, and they remain anyways, they are guilty of trespassing. > > When the cops show up, it doesn’t matter if five white guys are eating, and only the black customers have been asked to leave. The fact that they were asked to leave and did not is the very definition of trespassing. Of course. And the cops are put in the position of enforcing the racism of the owner. Not to mention that no one is guilty of anything until there is a trial. Assuming you can find a prosecutor to spend state money on this, you’d have to find a jury that would do anything but find a verdict of screw you to the owner of the store. In the old days you probably could because the jury would be all white and there would be significant pressure on them to come in with a guilty verdict. Not now, unless the government was racist also - which is assumed not to be true. The point here is that even without the CRA the owners cannot enforce a discriminatory policy without government support, which was acknowledged as inappropriate. Denny’s was accused of being racist, and even if true they did it without government involvement. They made minority customers feel unwelcome, but I don’t recall reading that they accused any of trespassing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/192 "2014-02-13T00:17:41Z")
By the way, [here is a description](http://www.civilrights.uga.edu/cities/atlanta/atlanta_printable/pickrick_cafe_printable.htm) of Lester Maddox’s racist restaurant. He appears to have made a good living from it. So much for the free market. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/193 "2014-02-13T00:42:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yeah, 1950s called. They want their scenario back. Of course, there have been no cases of discrimination brought in the last twenty years, so this makes perfect sense. Oh, wait. . . that is not accurate. Or, maybe every discriminatory business has gone out of business in the last twenty years? Oh, wait. . . that has not happened, either. > [@Terr](#): > > And of course you need that bunker buster to hammer that nail in. Nope. I just have to point it out to the posters reading your claims so that they are not misled by your blind devotion to “the marketplace.” And, of course, you handwaving away every example of bigotry that is not punished by the marketplace on your claim that it was not really an example of bigotry is so persuasive. I suspect that you might get away with speculating that society has changed, sufficiently, that blacks will not suffer blatant discrimination, again. That you are willing to pretend that future discrimination against Muslims, (or Sikhs whom idiots confuse with Muslims), or homosexuals or American Indians or Pacific Islanders is a harkening back to the 1950s simply demonstrates that you seem to be unaware of the repeating cycles of U.S. history. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/194 "2014-02-13T00:45:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > By the way, [here is a description](http://www.civilrights.uga.edu/cities/atlanta/atlanta_printable/pickrick_cafe_printable.htm) of Lester Maddox’s racist restaurant. He appears to have made a good living from it. So much for the free market. You forgot the “l” on the end of the link, so that one is bad: [http://www.civilrights.uga.edu/cities/atlanta/atlanta\_printable/pickrick\_cafe\_printable.html](http://www.civilrights.uga.edu/cities/atlanta/atlanta_printable/pickrick_cafe_printable.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/195 "2014-02-13T01:25:39Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > The idea is that Chik Fil A was directly tied to bigots who want to see gay people dead, and pushed / celebrated for homosexuality to be punishable by death in places they know they could get away with it. And? What law do you propose to punish Chik Fil A for that association? > [@](#): > > The market _supported_ this. People ran out to show how much they were OK with it, and how DARE people boycott them for something silly like “opposing the murder of innocents”. That’s just stupid. Market is not supposed to punish someone for their views. For example, Roger Waters is extremely anti-Israeli. Stupid, I know. But doesn’t make me “punish” him by not buying Pink Floyd stuff. > [@](#): > > Pandering to these bigots would not be punished in the markets, as Republicans have shown. Again, you’re proposing markets punish someone or some company for some view they hold that has nothing to do with their business. No, thank God markets don’t work like that. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/196 "2014-02-13T01:27:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And? What law do you propose to punish Chik Fil A for that association? Nothing > [@](#): > > No, thank God markets don’t work like that. Exactly! So the OP is correct - as you can see in the title. The free market will not protect civil rights. There’s no real disagreement there - just agreement on if people _deserve_ to be protected, which is an entirely different issue. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/197 "2014-02-13T01:59:08Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Nothing Cool then. We agree. > [@](#): > > Exactly! So the OP is correct - as you can see in the title. The free market will not protect civil rights. It is not a “civil right” to be protected from hearing things you disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/198 "2014-02-13T02:04:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cool then. We agree. > It is not a “civil right” to be protected from hearing things you disagree with. I never claimed it was, luckily. It is not “free market” to murder people in the streets and eat their entrails. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/199 "2014-02-13T02:43:40Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > I never claimed it was, luckily. > > It is not “free market” to murder people in the streets and eat their entrails. And here’s a bunny with a pancake on its head. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/200 "2014-02-13T03:10:01Z")
Claiming to offer a bunny with a pancake on its head without posting a link is a bannable offense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982.md?page=11)