# No, the free market will not protect civil rights (or 'why the Civil Rights Act is still needed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982 "2014-02-10T16:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/41 "2014-02-10T18:05:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How about preventing t-shirt wearers from conducting business in my restaurant? Am I doing violence upon them? Talk about old chestnuts… no, having a dress code is not the same. There’s a history of racism and violence in this country, and the Civil Rights Act is one of the ways we’ve tried to rectify that. There is nothing in this history of racism and violence about wearing t-shirts. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/42 "2014-02-10T18:06:38Z")
But mainly there was popular support for simple human decency. **Will** , perhaps you ought to learn what Jim Crow, segregation, and lynchings were, and why they stopped (mostly), and tell us what role the “free market” played either way, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/43 "2014-02-10T18:10:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So everytime there is disparity between the lives of white individuals and black individuals it warrants “legal relief”. How about between smart and dumb people? Short and tall people? Blind and seeing people? Perhaps you have realized this is impossible. Now you’re being silly again. We can’t make everyone’s lives equal nor should we try. But we can and we must stop discrimination based on skin color, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/44 "2014-02-10T18:10:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But mainly there was popular support for simple human decency. > > **Will** , perhaps you ought to learn what Jim Crow, segregation, and lynchings were, and why they stopped (mostly), and tell us what role the “free market” played either way, hmm? Jim crow- administered by the state segregation- mostly by the state lynchings- failure of state to prevent ACTUAL violence None of these were market phenomenon. I have no idea what you are rambling on about. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/45 "2014-02-10T18:12:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now you’re being silly again. We can’t make everyone’s lives equal nor should we try. But we can and we must stop discrimination based on skin color, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc. You can’t stop discrimination. That’s hubris. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/46 "2014-02-10T18:13:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Jim crow- administered by the state > segregation- mostly by the state > lynchings- failure of state to prevent ACTUAL violence > > None of these were market phenomenon. I have no idea what you are rambling on about. The free market utterly failed to protect anyone’s rights in these instances. Jim Crow and segregation were not just ‘administered by the state’ – they included an enormous amount of day-to-day support by local communities’ non-state apparatuses. Sundown towns are just one example. It took state action to protect the rights of black people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/47 "2014-02-10T18:14:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You can’t stop discrimination. That’s hubris. You can make it illegal in lots of instances. Since the passage of the CRA, there has been a lot less discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/48 "2014-02-10T18:16:00Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > [Vidor, TX](http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/oppenheim.sundown.town/). It’s still 97+% non-Hispanic white (in SE Texas, no less!) due to unofficial town policies. It’s even on a major interstate highway. > > I suppose one could make the case that this isn’t necessarily something the federal government needs to be involved in, but that’s a different argument than claiming it’s no longer a problem in America. Am I missing something? I read that article and it sounded to me like the story is about the _history_ of racism in Vidor and how that reputation continues to cause non-whites to avoid moving there. Maybe I’m not reading between the lines, but the author is criticizing the town for not working hard enough to change its reputation; but not of attempting to continue to foster that reputation. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/49 "2014-02-10T18:17:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Talk about old chestnuts… no, having a dress code is not the same. There’s a history of racism and violence in this country, and the Civil Rights Act is one of the ways we’ve tried to rectify that. There is nothing in this history of racism and violence about wearing t-shirts. You refuse to draw meaningful distinctions between the real definition of violence and your definition which includes non-violent things. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That was only part of the popular support. There was also popular support for the ‘sit-ins’ of businesses like lunch counters that segregated. Those that were segregated by law, you mean? That was resistance to the state. Capitalism is what happens outside of the state. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who is refusing to provide service in the desert? If there are no businesses out there, then there is no service being refused. Sure there is. I refuse, you refuse, Exxon refuses, Ruby Tuesday refuses, to provide services in the desert. > [@](#): > > Wrong wrong wrong. Being turned away from business and not being allowed to take part in certain regions and sectors of the economy was absolutely a ‘big potato’ part of the violence used by the state (and society in general) against black people. It was not just bats and bullets – it was far more. Again:You refuse to draw meaningful distinctions between the real definition of violence and your definition which includes non-violent things. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/50 "2014-02-10T18:21:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can make it illegal in lots of instances. Since the passage of the CRA, there has been a lot less discrimination. Yes, discrimination has decreased, but that is not attributed to state action. Only people ignorant of human nature would even claim such a thing. Discrimination has decreased since the CRA for the same reason it was decreasing in the period leading up to the CRA. In my opinion it came from increased favorable voluntary associations between individuals of different races. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/51 "2014-02-10T18:22:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You can’t stop discrimination. That’s hubris. But you \*can \*stop \*acting \*on discriminatory beliefs. And, for the most part, we have. Are you suggesting it has never been a problem? > [@](#): > > None of these were market phenomenon. I have no idea what you are rambling on about. You’re using “free market” as an odd synonym for “lack of legal regulation”. And, while you’re right that, for a despicably long time, government controlled by racists permitted those things to exist (through _in_action, failure to stop them), they did not \*cause \*them or the attitudes that did. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/52 "2014-02-10T18:23:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The free market utterly failed to protect anyone’s rights in these instances. Jim Crow and segregation were not just ‘administered by the state’ – they included an enormous amount of day-to-day support by local communities’ non-state apparatuses. Sundown towns are just one example. It took state action to protect the rights of black people. Hold up, buddy. The free market is not meant to protect against violence. The government has a monopoly on the protection racket. Blame them. Jim Crow _ **LAWS** _ were not administered by the state? You have crossed the Rubicon of twisted language my friend. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/53 "2014-02-10T18:24:29Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You refuse to draw meaningful distinctions between the real definition of violence and your definition which includes non-violent things. In the sense of ‘violence against black people before Civil Rights’, all of these things are absolutely included in that category. It’s a far more valid comparison than your silly t-shirts argument. > [@](#): > > Those that were segregated by law, you mean? And those that were segregated by choice. > [@](#): > > Sure there is. I refuse, you refuse, Exxon refuses, Ruby Tuesday refuses, to provide services in the desert. Ridiculous. Comparing the right to not open a business in the desert to the supposed ‘right’ to turn away customers based on race to the business you’ve already opened doesn’t even deserve a response. > [@](#): > > Again:You refuse to draw meaningful distinctions between the real definition of violence and your definition which includes non-violent things. Wrong. You refuse to acknowledge the real history of violence and oppression against black people, by both state and market actors, before the CRA. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/54 "2014-02-10T18:24:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can’t possibly believe that it isn’t a problem (if true) merely because the government of the town doesn’t lay it out in black and white. Yes I can. If the government of Vidor passed laws which treated one race differently from another, that would be a problem. If the government of Vidor treats all races the same, and it’s mainly whites who choose to live there, why should that be a problem? When I was a college professor, I often attended academic conferences in math and physics where the racial composition was something like 100 whites, 50 Asians, and no blacks, Hispanics, or Native Americans. Are mathematicians and physicists secretly planning to create sundown towns as soon as the Civil Rights Act is repealed? Or in their case, is it somehow okay to have an environment with very few blacks or Hispanics. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/55 "2014-02-10T18:25:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I found nothing in it which says that Vidor would become a ‘sundown town’ of the type **iiandyiiii** describes, if the CRA were repealed. It was one. Not long ago. I’m not sure why you think it won’t go back to that or that it isn’t the _de facto_ situation now. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As for Vidor being 97% white, so what? Why is that a problem? On its face? It’s not. But every other surrounding town has a demographic mix more representative of SE Texas. Something is different about Vidor that’s not true a few miles over. Is that necessarily a problem? No. But it is suggestive. And, in this particular case, it’s a well known secret in this part of Texas (a deliberate oxymoron in this case) the town is both incredibly racist and incredibly corrupt, including elements of its city government and judiciary. And, yes, in this part of Texas, it’s almost a euphemism. Here’s a [Texas Monthly article](http://www.texasobserver.org/old-wounds-missing-man-jasper/) where a small Texas town is described as a “mini-Vidor”, meaning it has a bunch of racism and corruption. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As for the “unofficial town policies”, I have no idea what you’re talking about. “Unofficial policy” sounds like an oxymoron to me. That’s unrealistically naive or deliberately obtuse. > [@Falchion](#): > > Am I missing something? I read that article and it sounded to me like the story is about the _history_ of racism in Vidor and how that reputation continues to cause non-whites to avoid moving there. Sorry. Not the best article on it, but it’s still the seat of white power movements and racism in the area. I still remember how shocked I was 10 years ago when they were announcing a black family moving into town (this is news in Vidor) and a lady at a diner said, “Oh, they’re fine people. I don’t mind them eating in the same restaurant. I just don’t want to live next to one.” This wasn’t 50 years ago. This was in the 21st century. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Prove that withholding services from a group leads to violence against them. Upscale clubs and restaurants discriminate against the poor, but it doesn’t lead to them bopping the poor on top of the head. So what? As I’ve noted twice already in this thread, whether or not the government _should_ do anything here is a different debate from whether or not there is even a problem. It’s one thing to argue whether or not something should be done. It’s another to claim the problem doesn’t exist in the first place. And it’s still another to attempt to conflate the two. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/56 "2014-02-10T18:26:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes, discrimination has decreased, but that is not attributed to state action. Only people ignorant of human nature would even claim such a thing. Discrimination has decreased since the CRA for the same reason it was decreasing in the period leading up to the CRA. In my opinion it came from increased favorable voluntary associations between individuals of different races. So you’re seriously arguing that the CRA and associated legislation has had nothing to do with the elimination of lynchings, segregation, the near-elimination of turning away black people from restaurants, and related phenomena? You can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/57 "2014-02-10T18:33:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Hold up, buddy. The free market is not meant to protect against violence. The government has a monopoly on the protection racket. Blame them. Jim Crow _ **LAWS** _ were not administered by the state? You have crossed the Rubicon of twisted language my friend. You conveniently forget the word ‘segregation’ (and sundown towns) in my statement. It was not just the state that oppressed black people. It was groups of white business owners, ‘concerned citizens’ councils’, and the like. And it continued for decades, even after the CRA, in the aforementioned sundown towns. Seriously, are you just OK with sundown towns? You don’t think it’s a problem if black people suddenly are unable to drive from town A to town C because town B won’t let them get gas? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/58 "2014-02-10T18:34:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Jim Crow _ **LAWS** _ were not administered by the state? You have crossed the Rubicon of twisted language my friend. Uh, Jim Crow laws were passed by State Legislatures. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/59 "2014-02-10T18:36:00Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Uh, Jim Crow laws were passed by State Legislatures. > > - Honesty This is a good point- it took _Federal Government_ action to end the discriminatory laws passed by many states and localities. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/60 "2014-02-10T18:38:58Z")
I would like to point out that the idea that “the market” will fix things automatically is an article of faith, it isn’t a fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982.md?page=4)