# No, the free market will not protect civil rights (or 'why the Civil Rights Act is still needed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982 "2014-02-10T16:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/141 "2014-02-11T16:56:32Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > This seems to me like a rather poor argument. The NFL sells entertainment. Entertainment companies hire or refuse to hire based on whether they think a certain person will provide what the customers are looking for. Such decisions naturally involve questions of race, religion, gender, age, etc…, Civil Rights Act or no Civil Rights Act, so how could anyone expect that sexual orientation would have no effect on a person’s marketability in the entertainment world? Thank you for showing us exactly how well the free market would handle civil rights in the absence of legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/142 "2014-02-11T17:00:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It would be an impossible case to prove. Not impossible: collusion by pro sports owners has been proven in multiple cases. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/143 "2014-02-11T17:06:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It would be an impossible case to prove. How do people ever win racial or gender discrimination law suits? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/144 "2014-02-11T17:19:22Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > The argument is whether the free market has made civil rights legislation unnecessary. Michael Sam’s talents were considered to be at one level when he was presumed to be straight and another level now that he’s known to be gay. The fact that it happens in other segments of business does not make it appropriate. As **Terr** has pointed out, Civil Rights law has no bearing on Sam’s placement in the NFL draft. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/145 "2014-02-11T17:28:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not if you have a team’s execs on record for saying something like ‘we don’t want someone like that in our locker room’. If there is a law like that, and the team’s exec is that stupid, he deserves the punishment. But I can guarantee you the guy would still not be drafted, and no one will say something like that. On the record it will be all about football. So - impossible to prosecute. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/146 "2014-02-11T17:30:36Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Not impossible: collusion by pro sports owners has been proven in multiple cases. Huh? What does “collusion” have to do with it. I can guarantee you there is no conspiracy by team owners not to draft gay players for some nefarious reason. Each one decides on his own not to hire him. Most likely because of team cohesion problems. But if there is a law against that some time, then the reason will be all football related not to draft the gay guy. Every time. Try to legislate against that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/147 "2014-02-11T17:35:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Huh? What does “collusion” have to do with it. I can guarantee you there is no conspiracy by team owners not to draft gay players for some nefarious reason. Each one decides on his own not to hire him. Most likely because of team cohesion problems. But if there is a law against that some time, then the reason will be all football related not to draft the gay guy. Every time. Try to legislate against that. If it is true that such discrimination cannot be legislated away, is it a good thing or a bad thing in your personal opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/148 "2014-02-11T17:37:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Huh? What does “collusion” have to do with it. I can guarantee you there is no conspiracy by team owners not to draft gay players for some nefarious reason. Each one decides on his own not to hire him. Most likely because of team cohesion problems. But if there is a law against that some time, then the reason will be all football related not to draft the gay guy. Every time. Try to legislate against that. It’s a similar mechanism. I’m simply refuting the idea that owners would never work together to exclude people, and that this could not be proven. And, of course, as John Mace as pointed out, people win gender and race discrimination cases all the time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/149 "2014-02-11T17:42:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If there is a law like that, and the team’s exec is that stupid, he deserves the punishment. But I can guarantee you the guy would still not be drafted, and no one will say something like that. On the record it will be all about football. So - impossible to prosecute. There’s no law like that right now, but you asked how it might be prosecuted, and I answered. If there are emails, or recorded statements, then it could easily be prosecuted. You seem to be saying “impossible to prosecute unless they do that”, which is fine, but I just answered your question and showed you how they might prosecute. Also – you could “guarantee” the guy would still not be drafted… are you saying that Michael Sam won’t be drafted? Because that’s a pretty bold prediction. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/150 "2014-02-11T17:52:04Z")
The analogy is strained. A single gay person who has “come out” but would otherwise be totally indistinguishable from all other college athletes hoping to be drafted by the NFL is not comparable to being black. One doesn’t have to “come out” to be recognized by other people as black. The CRA remains necessary because there is sufficient evidence (anecdotal on my part, I haven’t looked for any cite beyond my own experience) that open racism against people of color up to and including sundown towns would become much more prevalent without it. Hostility and discrimination targeting gays is seen aplenty, but requires the victim be identified as gay. In the scenario so oft repeated in this thread, it would be possible for a gay person to drive across the USA and experience no racism, as long as “gayness” was not revealed. Need to find a better analogy, this one doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/151 "2014-02-11T17:57:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > This never took place. > > I’m opposed to the type of racial and gender discrimination known as “affirmative action”. This is what I don’t get about white people. You all in the 1960’s had a choice between two visions: Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. Whites overwhelmingly (and perplexingly) chose the latter and, after he died, you all start dismantling the legislation (inspired by him) piece-by-piece. Why do that? It’s reneging on your promise to African-Americans to treat us like living, breathing human beings. Here’s a question for you (general you): Why not support Malcolm X or Marcus Garvey? Why pretend you wanted blacks to sit at the table of brotherhood, when, in fact, you don’t? Moreoever, why is that when programs/policies (e.g voting rights, affirmative action, federal revenue sharing) are successful you want to dismantle them but when programs/policies are failing (e.g. NCLB, tax cuts for the wealthy and subsidies to multinational corporations, war on drugs) you keep them going? Explain, please. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m opposed to the segregationist policies that southern Democrats had in place during the Jim Crow era. During the period you are referring to, Democrats are essentially Republicans of today, yanno. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m opposed to more recent Democrats such as Coleman Young who have deliberately driven away whites. :rolleyes: - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/152 "2014-02-11T18:01:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If it is true that such discrimination cannot be legislated away, is it a good thing or a bad thing in your personal opinion? It’s a good thing. I don’t want the government interfering in business decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/153 "2014-02-11T18:02:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Also – you could “guarantee” the guy would still not be drafted… are you saying that Michael Sam won’t be drafted? Because that’s a pretty bold prediction. Wanna make a little wager? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/154 "2014-02-11T18:05:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would love to hear even some anecdotal evidence of this “big problem” of black motorists being habitually stranded due to sundown towns. [How about this?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) > [@](#): > > In 1948 one black driver, Robert Mallard, was lynched in his brand-new car in front of his wife and child by a white mob in Georgia which allegedly saw him as being “not the right kind of negro” and “nigger rich”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/155 "2014-02-11T18:07:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wanna make a little wager? I’d want to wait until after the combine, but if you want to stipulate “gets drafted assuming he has a decent performance at the combine”, then I’d be happy to bet. I think he’ll get drafted, barring bad workouts and/or a bad combine. Getting voted by his teammates team MVP (IIRC) speaks pretty damn well of him. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/156 "2014-02-11T18:08:55Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Not that it really changes anything, there is no question that remaining on private property after you’ve been asked to leave is trespassing. Even if you’ve been invited in. > > (Just coming in isn’t trepassing, but remaining after being asked to leave is almost certainly trespassing). If there are no trespassing signs, and this is universally enforced, then the role of law enforcement is clear. If however only certain groups, indistinguishable from non-trespassing groups except by religion or skin color, are told to leave, if law enforcement is enforcing no trespassing laws it is a case of government getting directly involved in discrimination. Which was my point. There seems to be agreement that it is not proper for government to discriminate. But in this case there is still a call for government to aid and enable discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/157 "2014-02-11T18:10:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d want to wait until after the combine, but if you want to stipulate “gets drafted assuming he has a decent performance at the combine”, then I’d be happy to bet. I think he’ll get drafted, barring bad workouts and/or a bad combine. Getting voted by his teammates team MVP (IIRC) speaks pretty damn well of him. Nah, the wager would start now. $100 to charity of the winner’s choice. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/158 "2014-02-11T18:19:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If there are no trespassing signs, and this is universally enforced, then the role of law enforcement is clear. If however only certain groups, indistinguishable from non-trespassing groups except by religion or skin color, are told to leave, if law enforcement is enforcing no trespassing laws it is a case of government getting directly involved in discrimination. Which was my point. > There seems to be agreement that it is not proper for government to discriminate. But in this case there is still a call for government to aid and enable discrimination. All I’m saying is that trespassing isn’t a binary state between “no trespassing signs [that are] univerally enforced” and open to everyone. If I say, “Hey **Voyager** , get off of my cloud” and you don’t, that’s trespassing. If I have a party, and invite you, and then tell you to leave, and you don’t go, it’s trespassing. The problem with your approach is that it puts the law enforcement in the role of adjudicating discrimination claims. They come to my party and do what? Have you put forth a prima facie case of discrimination, and then I need to demonstrate a non-discriminatory reason. And then they determine if it’s pretense and we have some disparate impact issues. It’s transparently absurd in the context of a private party, but I’m not sure it works any better in a business context. What do the police do? Make me pour you a beer at gunpoint? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/159 "2014-02-11T18:21:50Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This is what I don’t get about white people. > > You all in the 1960’s had a choice between two visions: Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. Whites overwhelmingly (and perplexingly) chose the latter and, after he died, you all start dismantling the legislation (inspired by him) piece-by-piece. Why do that? It’s reneging on your promise to African-Americans to treat us like living, breathing human beings. Here’s a question for you (general you): Why not support Malcolm X or Marcus Garvey? Why pretend you wanted blacks to sit at the table of brotherhood, when, in fact, you don’t? Moreoever, why is that when programs/policies (e.g voting rights, affirmative action, federal revenue sharing) are successful you want to dismantle them but when programs/policies are failing (e.g. NCLB, tax cuts for the wealthy and subsidies to multinational corporations, war on drugs) you keep them going? Explain, please. > > - Honesty Why do you think the people in the states dismantling civil rights legislation today ever wanted equality? It got forced on them by yankees and outside agitators. It’s not like the North is perfect, but when I moved from SW Louisiana to New Jersey in 1980 the reduction in de facto segregation in restaurants was striking. I don’t know about today, but I think the popularity of stars and bars is a clue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982/160 "2014-02-11T19:00:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nah, the wager would start now. $100 to charity of the winner’s choice. Let’s make it $20 and you’re on 🙂 So the bet is “will Michael Sam get drafted by an NFL team”, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-free-market-will-not-protect-civil-rights-or-why-the-civil-rights-act-is-still-needed/680982.md?page=9)