# No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847 "2015-08-03T03:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/181 "2015-08-05T17:32:31Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Hell, I’m inclined to think Israel _was_ ( not _is_ ) a bad idea, or at least let’s say I am ambivalent about it as it was conceived. I think the practical motivation is tough to argue against, but philosophically I don’t much care for ethno-religious nationalism. > > But I’m still weakly pro-Israel insomuch as I am anything. **Ibn Warraq** ’s view notwithstanding it’s a flawed but weakly functional democracy under siege and arguments against its continued existence _now_ are just idiocy. Whether it was a good idea to begin with or not, you can’t unscramble eggs. > > But I’m pretty comfortable separating my views on Israel as a historical construct/concept from Israel as a reality in the here and now. I am too ignorant about the history to have a strong view on “was,” but agree with you on “is.” I just think that people who disagree with me aren’t necessarily anti-Semites. They may well be wrong, but it’s clear to me how they can reach that wrong place without having any anti-Semitic views. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/182 "2015-08-05T17:32:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > None from the clergy you mean, or an active rabbi? Isn’t that like saying the US doesn’t have religious litmus test for presidents but we just happened to have 44 Christian presidents in a row? No, he means one who prays daily or goes to synagogue every week or observes the Sabbath. IMHO, Barak Obama is a far more religious man than any Israeli PM ever was. In the 2002 elections, someone asked the candidates (Ariel Sharon and Amram Mitzna) whether they believed in God. Their answers were “That’s private” and “None of your business”. I don’t remember the question ever being asked again. You really don’t get that most Israelis define their Jewishness as having nothing to do with religion. Take my wife and her family - all proudly Jewish left-wing Zionist atheists. It may seem like a contradiction to you, but it isn’t to them. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/183 "2015-08-05T17:47:15Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’ll just let that post/username combo sit there for a moment. > > 😃 We all have our little cognitive dissonances ;). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/184 "2015-08-05T18:26:40Z")
Glad you brought that up! We at the Mother’s March Against Cognitive Dissonance recognize CD as the number one threat to the Republic, and are hard at work to stem its corrosive and destructive effects! We will be hosting a web meeting this Thursday night in connection with a gathering of many of the most prominent victims. (Though the irony is not lost on us, it is a Fox News hosted event, which is a bit like Pablo Escobar hosting a DARE meeting.) We have every confidence that when you see the horror, the dismal derangement of victims of Cognitive Dissonance, you will give, and give generously! when your Mother’s March volunteer comes calling! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/185 "2015-08-05T18:56:53Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Hell, I’m inclined to think Israel _was_ ( not _is_ ) a bad idea, or at least let’s say I am ambivalent about it as it was conceived. I think the practical motivation is tough to argue against, but philosophically I don’t much care for ethno-religious nationalism. > > But I’m still weakly pro-Israel insomuch as I am anything. **Ibn Warraq** ’s view notwithstanding it’s a flawed but weakly functional democracy under siege and arguments against its continued existence _now_ are just idiocy. Whether it was a good idea to begin with or not, you can’t unscramble eggs. > > But I’m pretty comfortable separating my views on Israel as a historical construct/concept from Israel as a reality in the here and now. I’m in the same place. We can argue about whether or not it wasn’t such a great idea at the time, but it’s established, functioning and recognized. Any attempt to nullify the state of Israel is a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/186 "2015-08-05T19:13:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Any attempt to nullify the state of Israel is a non-starter. Is that relevant to whether criticism of the legitimacy of Israel is necessarily anti-Semitic? Hell, there are lefties who think _California_ is illegitimate for not-entirely-dissimilar reasons. I don’t think that makes them anti- **John Mace**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/187 "2015-08-05T19:33:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Is that relevant to whether criticism of the legitimacy of Israel is necessarily anti-Semitic? I don’t think criticism of the legitimacy of Israel is necessarily anti-Semitic. I certain can be, and it might even more often be, but it needn’t be. And let’s not forget the ultra-Orthodix Jews who do question the legitimacy of the state of Israel (as it exists today). Are they anti-Semitic? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/188 "2015-08-05T19:59:32Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > I don’t know about those posters but I’m a liberal and have no “ulterior motive”. Or yeah, obviously I’m just making it up for shits and giggles. You’re responding to something I didn’t say. Do you know what an ulterior motive is? Hint: It’s not synonymous with “making it up”. I didn’t say anything about them “making it up”, and I didn’t say anything at all about you. > [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > You’re starting with a false premise. “the basic tenets of the Left are antisemitic” is untrue and people mentioned multiple times that that is what NOBODY is trying to argue. > > It doesn’t change the fact that a significant undercurrent of the left is antisemitic. No, not anti-semitic in the way that they’re really joyous about the holocaust having happened. No, not anti-semitic in that they think jews are an inferior race. > > But yes, antisemitic in that they are so anti-Israel that it spreads over to their gut-reacton to jews as a whole. The fact that a lot of successful academics, entrepreneurs, entertainers, etc. are jewish doesn’t help as there is a tendency for the left to root for the underdog. I cannot tell you how _many_ times I’ve heard liberals say, in person, of how they hold disdain for those “oppressive jews” in Israel. So much that it’s a fucking _cliche_ by now. Yes, it is more prevalent in Europe but it’s obvious on American blogs, media outlets etc. as well. Heck, this very forum. > > I’m not going to waste my time looking for a “cite” that you’re going to dismiss anyway. If you don’t see it, cool. Good for you, I guess. Why would I dismiss your cite and why do you assume that? I don’t require a cite because I never said I don’t believe there is antisemitism on the left. Just because I choose to not associate myself with it doesn’t mean I’m not aware of it. Why do you see arguments where there is none? Could it be that your perception is biased in other areas as well? I said I don’t know how prevalent it is and could not estimate it based on my personal experience alone. You however have no problem extrapolating based on the people you speak to in person and random internet sites you’ve seen. What percentage of leftists do they comprise? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/189 "2015-08-05T21:48:33Z")
> [@camille](#): > > . . . Which parts? That leftists are fuzzy headed thinkers who shouldn’t be respected? The grossly simplistic history lesson? The ridiculous and untenable proposal for a solution? Grin! The operative clauses, not the preambulatory clauses. > [@](#): > > . . . I believe that posters like **Haberdash** and **Terr** have ulterior motives with these claims because they want to smear\* all\* leftists and therefore discredit all left leaning positions. . . . Agreed. It makes me sick to my stomach to agree with anything **Terr** says, because (this is still the Pit, right?) he’s a nasty, ugly, vicious, right-wing, hate-filled troll. But I am forced to state my beliefs, and they overlap with his – to my intense disgust – in some of the details this subject. (I was going to give an example, but realized it would just lead to a highjack. Let’s just say I think **Terr** is a turd, but I am compelled to agree with some of what he has said here.) (Hey, it happens. **Bricker** has really beautiful taste in music.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/190 "2015-08-05T23:28:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I point you again to Nathan Weinstock, a leftist French activist who wrote the book “Zionism: False Messiah” in the 60s. > … > He was not talking about right-wingers there. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > That is all great and noteworthy. Now tell it to Leftist protesters around the world especially in Europe. > … > If you are still upset about it, blame the French as always. They were the key player in the formation of Israel and now many French Leftists are among its biggest detractors. You simply can’t win when you go up against a determined Leftist mindset so the best thing to do is pick the things that are working and support those while defending them from the potential threats. Sure. That’s why I specifically _ **excluded** _ Europeans in my request for data about the anti-semitism of the _ **American** _ Left. I believe the words I used were, “they crazy.” We Yanks have long been uncomfortable with their predilection for taking an idea and taking it far beyond what is reasonable. See: the French Revolution :eek: > [@camille](#): > > I believe that posters like **Haberdash** and **Terr** have ulterior motives with these claims because they want to smear\* all\* leftists and therefore discredit all left leaning positions. :smack: No, that’s not it. What’s the emoticon that has a guy pointing at the tip of his nose, like when you are playing Charades? I mean you nailed it, right on the nose. > [@Terr](#): > > Again, Benny Morris, the revisionist historian who was the darling of anti-Israeli leftists: You keep bringing him up as if he were a guiding light for the American Left, and we keep telling you that we’ve never heard of him. What the fuck is your point supposed to be? > [@Alessan](#): > > IMHO, Barak Obama is a far more religious man than any Israeli PM ever was. Well, he does bow toward Mecca five times a day, so I guess you have a point. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/191 "2015-08-06T03:55:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I have no trouble believing there are left-wing anti-Semites (insofar as you could type “gay Republican dwarfs who eat Marmite and play bocce” and probably find a relevant chatroom) but I’m still not convinced anti-Semitism is any more intrinsic to whomever “The Left” are than it is to “The Right”. > > Some (and possibly most) people are assholes. Everything else is just details. Once again, the tall people seek to diminish the importance of the Marmite-&-bocce little person gayservative community, by acting as if they are too obscure to take seriously. This insult will not stand! 😉 > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t think anyone (in this thread) is arguing that being against Israeli policy is necessarily anti-Semitic. Their argument, as I understood it, is that being against the legitimacy of the Israeli state, or at least thinking it was/is a bad idea, is necessarily anti-Semitic. Yeah, I would have liked to support Zionism, but I just don’t think it’s going to work out in a good way. Too many people, too little land, too much of a long-term trend for fanaticism and racism. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/192 "2015-08-06T13:46:50Z")
I wonder if **Terr** has actually read any of Morris’ books. Or realizes that he’s not the “darling” of anyone, particularly not the American left - the other New Historians have criticized his political views quite extensively, and right-wing historians like Efraim Karsh (lead researcher for Daniel Pipes’ pet Muslim-hating thinktank) are furious about his upending of the old “official story” regarding why the Palestinian refugees became refugees in the first place and have doggedly attacked his scholarship. Morris himself, despite his political differences with the New Historians, has never retracted his own scholarship about Israeli atrocities against and deliberate expulsions of the Palestinians in 1948 (which is why historians on Karsh’s side of the political spectrum still despise him, since they adhere to the old “official story”). He [just thinks that those atrocities and expulsions were justified and supportable rather than worthy of condemnation](http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm), that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/193 "2015-08-06T15:51:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, he means one who prays daily or goes to synagogue every week or observes the Sabbath. IMHO, Barak Obama is a far more religious man than any Israeli PM ever was. > > In the 2002 elections, someone asked the candidates (Ariel Sharon and Amram Mitzna) whether they believed in God. Their answers were “That’s private” and “None of your business”. I don’t remember the question ever being asked again. > > You really don’t get that most Israelis define their Jewishness as having nothing to do with religion. Take my wife and her family - all proudly Jewish left-wing Zionist atheists. It may seem like a contradiction to you, but it isn’t to them. I think that’s all the more reason why Israel should not be a stickler on being recognized as Jewish. Just accept being a normal, secular state, then call yourself whatever you bloody want ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/194 "2015-08-06T16:19:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think that’s all the more reason why Israel should not be a stickler on being recognized as Jewish. Just accept being a normal, secular state, then call yourself whatever you bloody want You’re making yourself look even stupider than the time you argued the Germans, Slovakians, Lithuanians and every other ethnic group had a right to their own state except for the Jews who should not have their own. Israel being recognized as “the Jewish State” is not a religious declaration it’s a declaration about ethnicity. You are aware aren’t you that the Jews are a nation aren’t you? Their insistence on being recognized as the Jewish state is no different than Germany being recognized as Deutschland(Land of the Germans). Similarly, it’s no different than Palestinians demanding that they get a nation recognized as “the homeland of the Palestinian people”. Personally I’m not a fan of ethnic states but Israel is hardly the first and it borders on Anti-Semitism to say the Jews and no one else can’t have one. Are you now making this big deal about religion, because the last time you tried this argument it blew up in your face and wound up with people ridiculing your argument. BTW, what moron told you that there were Palestinians who weren’t Arabs as you claimed in a previous post? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/195 "2015-08-06T16:30:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Personally I’m not a fan of ethnic states but Israel is hardly the first and it borders on Anti-Semitism to say the Jews and no one else can’t have one. I think this is right, but I’m not sure I would test whether a given individual holds that proposition by comparison to Germany or Lithuania, since presumably the notion of ethnic nationalism alone is not the only objection. Right or wrong, the objections also involve the actual circumstances of the creation of the state of Israel. Such objections (to state this again) may be ill-informed or unreasonable. But I don’t think that transforms them into being anti-Semitic. Obviously, one might refuse to examine poor assumptions because one likes the outcome for bigoted reasons. But there are lots of reasons for ignorance other than bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/196 "2015-08-06T17:27:30Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Sorry, but these days my head is stuck more in the 1300s than the 1900s, and I have already demonstrated my general cluelessness about the region’s more-modern history. But my opinions aren’t extremely strong, either. I’m more annoyed than anything. > That _sniff_ _popularizer?_ I haven’t read enough, but I’m a slow reader. Forgive me. Heh. Well-played, well-played!😉 I guess the comment should be explained since I was being a bit snarky. For those who don’t know him, Benny Morris is a historian/journalist who in the 1980s revolutionized way people saw the “birth of Israel” with a book he wrote called The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem where he destroyed the idea that the Palestinians voluntarily left. By his own estimates around 70% fled as a direct or indirect result of military action by the Jews of Palestine. Terr’s claim that he’s “the darling” of Leftists is at least twenty years out of date since he tended to reverse his sympathies during the 90s and 00s when he wound up feeling betrayed by Arafat & Co. McPherson of course is one of the more prominent historians on The Civil War who’s also successfully wrote several books on the subject for the general public. My point was that anyone who was really familiar with the history of the region and who read up on it would know who Morris was, just as anyone really interested in and read up on the Civil War would know about the author of The Battle Cry of Freedom. Sadly enough, huge numbers of people on both sides tend to pick sides for their own reasons that have more to do with domestic political beliefs and concerns than the people fighting one another. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/197 "2015-08-06T17:33:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Terr’s claim that he’s “the darling” of Leftists is at least twenty years out of date since he tended to reverse his sympathies during the 90s and 00s when he wound up feeling betrayed by Arafat & Co. I didn’t claim that “he’s the darling of Leftists”. I said he was, used to be, the darling of anti-Israel Leftists. That claim is absolutely correct. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/198 "2015-08-06T17:34:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think this view is a big part of the difference of views here, and it’s quite wrong. > > It is perfectly possible to believe that Israel is problematic _as a nation_ and not be anti-Semitic. Now, as \*\*Ibn Warraq \*\*points out, there are ways you might assess the real motivation. If you otherwise believe in ethnic nationalism or self-determination, you might be hypocritical on your views of Israel. If your views are based on bad history of the Zionist movement, this might also be a sign that your bias is a problem–though note that people on both sides often have ignorant views of the history, as demonstrated in this thread. > > If I criticize the notion of the Republic of Crimea or South Sudan as a nation am I anti-Crimean or anti-Sudanese? No, obviously not. While criticism of Israel as a nation may be chiefly the province of bigots, there is no logically necessary relationship there. No one really believes that _every_ ethnic group ‘deserves’ a country, whatever deserve is supposed to mean. There are too many ethnic groups in the world for each of them to have a reasonably sized country. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/199 "2015-08-06T18:05:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I didn’t claim that “he’s the darling of Leftists”. I said he was, used to be, the darling of anti-Israel Leftists. That claim is absolutely correct. It’s also irrelevant, since (as Ari Shavit pointed out), he may have changed his political tune, but his scholarship still documents “the sins of Zionism”, which is why he’s still hated by the right now matter HOW much he justifies and supports those sins. What you’re doing, in short, is a stupid combination of the strawman and appeal to authority fallacies, and no one who knows anything about Benny Morris is going to be fooled by it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/200 "2015-08-06T18:15:55Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > It’s also irrelevant, since (as Ari Shavit pointed out), he may have changed his political tune, but his scholarship still documents “the sins of Zionism”, which is why he’s still hated by the right now matter HOW much he justifies and supports those sins. That’s irrelevant because what I talked about has nothing to do with those “sins”. It has to do with Morris stating, (and he does have quite a bit of experience with watching this during his “darling of the anti-Israel left” years) that: “The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. **And there is a connection between the two**.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=11)