# No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847 "2015-08-03T03:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/441 "2015-08-10T23:23:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah the last refuge of the “no anti-semitism” argument. Look up the etymology of the word “anti-semitism”. I have. It actually traces back to 19th-Century Germany, and the silly idea of a Jewish “threat” to the local culture. I just checked on Wikipedia, and bizarrely, it’s not as tied to neo-paganism & the rejection of Christianity as I was remembering, because apparently German racism didn’t have to make any sense at all. Taken out of that context, what is anti-Semitism, even? I really wish you would use a word that means what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/442 "2015-08-10T23:24:03Z")
Why is anybody still feeding this troll? He won’t be happy until we admit that everybody who isn’t Jewish is anti-semitic (or has he done that?) and then he’ll start on the people who aren’t his brand of Jewish, like Jews who are not Republicans. And really, Terr, an internet poll with 54 self-selected respondents? Can you get any more pathetic? Don’t bother answering, because you’ll just troll it up some more. Go back under your bridge. I hear the Three Billy Goats Gruff coming, and it’s dinner time ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/443 "2015-08-11T00:51:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Taken out of that context, what is anti-Semitism, even? Hatred of Jews. That’s the meaning of the word, in English. That’s the language we’re using, right? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/444 "2015-08-11T22:17:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your own cite says that if you’re born to a Jewish mother, you’re Jewish. And how is it determined that your mother (or grandmother on your mother side) was Jewish? Because she felt so or was culturally Jewish, or ethnically Jewish? Who is going to provide the evidence that she was? Will at any point religion be involved, in your opinion? Or is it [del]turtles[/del] Jews all the way down? And how comes that the requirement isn’t that both your parents were Jewish, or either of your parents (your father, for instance)? Could it possibly have something to do with religious rules? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/445 "2015-08-11T22:20:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t know where your cite is from but it’s not an accurate depiction of who Israel classifies as a Jew for the purposes of immigrating to Israel, getting Israeli citizenship and having “Nationality: Jew” stamped on their national ID cards. The cite is from Israel’s embassy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/446 "2015-08-11T22:22:48Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And how comes that the requirement isn’t that both your parents were Jewish, or either of your parents (your father, for instance)? Because it’s 100% certainty that you are your mother’s son. Your father’s… who knows. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/447 "2015-08-11T22:26:44Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/448 "2015-08-11T22:42:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18554157&postcount=169](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18554157&postcount=169) > > Please tell me what Kobal2 means by “real French” then. He quite obviously meant people who _think_ they’re the “real” French (noticed the quote marks around “real”?) and is being critical of them. They’re “real” French because they’ve the proper religion (or at least don’t have the improper religion) and the proper skin colour. Including people who have no issue with the fact they’re descendant of Poles, Italians or Spaniards themselves, hence wouldn’t be considered “ethnically French” by your standards, presumably. And this view has nothing to do with the legal status (which we were talking about) and everything to do with xenophobia and racism. Once again, I think you’re disingenuous. I don’t believe you didn’t figure out by yourself what I wrote. You’re obviously trying to justify what is criticized wrt Israel by making up an equivalence between a legal status here and the views of a racist there. You can’t not realize that a law differenciating between two categories of individuals is the same as the existence of a racist person differenciating between two categories of individuals. You can’t state honestly that being considered Jew in Israel has nothing to do with religion, especially given the influence the most conservative religious leaders have wrt lawmaking there. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/449 "2015-08-11T22:46:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because it’s 100% certainty that you are your mother’s son. Your father’s… who knows. Yes, sure, that’s why they picked this rule. The fact that it happens to be also the Jewish religious rule is completely random. :rolleyes: That’s also the reason why almost all countries grant citizenship solely on the basis of who your mother was, presumably. It’s just being practical. :rolleyes: You keep being disingenuous. Well, I hope so. The alternative is that you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/450 "2015-08-11T22:58:50Z")
> [@camille](#): > > I don’t agree. French is an ethnicity as well as a nationality. My mother’s family is from France, and I still have family in France. Even if they become citizens of another country, they still consider themselves French. > > The difference you are thinking of is the fact that in Israel, “Jewish” is designated as a nationality/ethnicity in the official population registry (and until recently was on ID cards), something other countries do not do (although the Soviet Union did, so maybe **Terr** is more acclimated to it than most). Precisely, that’s the issue. We’re not talking about what people believe they are or believe other people are, but about legal status. Your relatives might think of themselves as French, but they aren’t, legally. And in fact I wouldn’t consider them French either unless they’re French citizens or culturally French. Frankly, I understand legally French or culturally French, but I’ve no clue what “ethnically French” is even supposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/451 "2015-08-11T23:08:41Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Yes, sure, that’s why they picked this rule. The fact that it happens to be also the Jewish religious rule is completely random. :rolleyes: No, it is the Jewish religious rule because it’s 100% certainty that you are your mother’s son. > [@](#): > > That’s also the reason why almost all countries grant citizenship solely on the basis of who your mother was, presumably. It’s just being practical. You do realize that the Israeli Law of Return doesn’t have that criteria for who is allowed to immigrate, right? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/452 "2015-08-11T23:14:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … and Irish nationalism. And Polish nationalism. And Latvian nationalism. And Bulgarian, Finnish, Estonian, Greek, Hungarian, Japanese, Turkish, etc. etc. Everyone is ok with those “ethnostates”. It’s just Israel that is the problem. Which of these countries make legal distinctions between their citizens based on religious or ethnic origin, besides Israel? Greece does, and is rightfully often criticized for it, contrarily to what you seem to believe. Turkey has been criticized a lot for the opposite reason : considering that there no such thing as a Kurd. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/453 "2015-08-11T23:16:57Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Which of these countries make legal distinctions between their citizens based on religious or ethnic origin, besides Israel? Can you cite an Israeli law that negatively discriminates against Arab citizens - you know, that “legal distinction”? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/454 "2015-08-11T23:23:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it is the Jewish religious rule because it’s 100% certainty that you are your mother’s son. That’s pretty clear. The question is why Israel decided to follow the religious rule, when other democracies don’t. > [@](#): > > You do realize that the Israeli Law of Return doesn’t have that criteria for who is allowed to immigrate, right? I realize from the corrections since posted that indeed the right of return is open to more people than I thought, but is still ultimately based on religion. If your father was Jewish, how do you establish that he was, again? And how comes your sister, presumably equally “ethnically Jewish” can’t if she converted to Islam? Nothing to do with religion, hmmm? And how comes I can emigrate to Israel despite not being “ethnically” Jew if I convert (as long as I pick the “correct” Jewish denomination)? Still nothing to do with religion? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/455 "2015-08-11T23:27:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I realize from the corrections since posted that indeed the right of return is open to more people than I thought, but is still ultimately based on religion. If your father was Jewish, how do you establish that he was, again? And how comes your sister, presumably equally “ethnically Jewish” can’t if she converted to Islam? Nothing to do with religion, hmmm? Nope. See, according to Judaism, any Jew that converts to Islam is still a Jew. But the Law of Return wouldn’t allow him/her in. And, according to Judaism, someone only whose paternal grandfather is Jewish isn’t a Jew. And the Law of Return still allows him/her in. Kinda destroys your idea that it is based on religion, doesn’t it? And in any case, have you managed yet to find an Israeli law that negatively discriminates against non-Jewish citizens of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/456 "2015-08-11T23:36:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you cite an Israeli law that negatively discriminates against Arab citizens - you know, that “legal distinction”? Hmmm…I think I read of some example somewhere…let’s me think about it…Oh, yes, it was in this very thread, and in fact the reason why we started this exchange. This Arab Israeli thing, you remember? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/457 "2015-08-11T23:37:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Hmmm…I think I read of some example somewhere…let’s me think about it…Oh, yes, it was in this very thread, and in fact the reason why we started this exchange. This Arab Israeli thing, you remember? :rolleyes: Can you cite the law? I will repeat the question: find an Israeli law that negatively discriminates against non-Jewish **citizens** of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/458 "2015-08-11T23:38:28Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Your relatives might think of themselves as French, but they aren’t, legally. And in fact I wouldn’t consider them French either unless they’re French citizens or culturally French. > > Frankly, I understand legally French or culturally French, but I’ve no clue what “ethnically French” is even supposed to mean. My mother is French, legally, and a French Jew ethnically. My father was legally Italian, with Greek and Italian ethnicity. I am legally US/Italian, with French/Jewish/Greek/Italian ethnicity. I could have applied for French citizenship, but it was easier at the time to apply in Italy. I could apply for Israeli citizenship as well, and would be considered ethnically Jewish. I think the confusion here is language. Ethnicity is really a social construct, probably what you call “culturally”. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/459 "2015-08-11T23:39:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And in any case, have you managed yet to find an Israeli law that negatively discriminates against non-Jewish citizens of Israel? The debate wasn’t about it negatively discriminating. You’re moving the goal posts. It was about simply discriminating. There shouldn’t be such a distinction in a democratic system. Saying " this guy is a category A citizen" and this other guy is a category B citizen is wrong, and obviously going to lead to discrimination in practice. It’s no different from the “separate but equal” concept. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/460 "2015-08-11T23:41:20Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The debate wasn’t about it negatively discriminating. You’re moving the goal posts. It was about simply discriminating. There shouldn’t be such a distinction in a democratic system. There is a legal distinction between blacks and whites in the United States, in several laws. Is US a “democratic system”? And so that we can discuss it specifically, which Israeli law are you referring to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=24)