# No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847 "2015-08-03T03:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/501 "2015-08-15T05:44:55Z")
> [@camille](#): > > [German American Bund - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund) Note that all of that was before US was at war with Nazis. I asked you for the evidence after the US entered the war. Got any? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/502 "2015-08-15T06:01:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Note that all of that was before US was at war with Nazis. I asked you for the evidence after the US entered the war. Got any? Did you read the whole thing? New Bund leaders replaced Kuhn, most notably Gerhard Kunze, but only for brief periods. A year after the outbreak of World War II, Congress enacted a peacetime military draft in September 1940. The Bund counseled members of draft age to evade conscription, a criminal offense punishable by up to five years in jail and a $10,000 fine. Gerhard Kunze fled to Mexico in November 1941 And of course there was a lot of pressure to cease all public activities: U.S. Congressman Martin Dies (D-Texas) and his House Committee on Un-American Activities were active in denying any Nazi-sympathetic organization the ability to operate freely during World War II. In the last week of December 1942, led by journalist Dorothy Thompson, fifty leading German-Americans (including baseball icon Babe Ruth) signed a “Christmas Declaration by men and women of German ancestry” condemning Nazism, which appeared in ten major American daily newspapers. Do you really think all the sympathizers “suddenly” changed their minds because war was declared? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/503 "2015-08-15T06:04:50Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Did you read the whole thing? > > New Bund leaders replaced Kuhn, most notably Gerhard Kunze, but only for brief periods. A year after the outbreak of World War II, Congress enacted a peacetime military draft in September 1940. The Bund counseled members of draft age to evade conscription, a criminal offense punishable by up to five years in jail and a $10,000 fine. Gerhard Kunze fled to Mexico in November 1941 Did YOU read it? Did you notice the word “peacetime”? Or that Gerhard Kunze fled the US even before US entered the war with Germany? > [@](#): > > Do you really think all the sympathizers “suddenly” changed their minds because war was declared? I am sure some did. Those that didn’t were persecuted, and some prosecuted. Do you think Israel should emulate the US in its treatment of those Israeli Arabs that sympathize with Israel’s enemies? Do you think Babe Ruth, who according to your cite self-identified as “man of German ancestry” “shared identity” with the Nazi Germans? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/504 "2015-08-15T06:27:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do you think Israel should emulate the US in its treatment of those Israeli Arabs that sympathize with Israel’s enemies? No, that wasn’t my point in the first place. > [@Terr](#): > > Do you think Babe Ruth, who according to your cite self-identified as “man of German ancestry” “shared identity” with the Nazi Germans? You don’t have to be a Nazi to identify with your German roots and culture. That’s politics; I am speaking about cultural identity. Do I have to agree with French, Greek, Israeli or Italian govt policies to identify with those cultures? Does every Jew have to agree with the current Israeli government to identify as a Jew? But it is interesting that the Bund’s activities (and of course the Nazis) were probably responsible for _weakening_ the American German’s cultural ties to the homeland in the end. That is when they really assimilated into US culture. But that is an exceptional circumstance. Not every ethnic group was subjected to that challenging situation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/505 "2015-08-15T06:37:42Z")
> [@camille](#): > > No, that wasn’t my point in the first place. It is mine. Care to respond to it? > [@](#): > > You don’t have to be a Nazi to identify with your German roots and culture. That’s politics; I am speaking about cultural identity. In the 1930s and up to 1945 Germany’s culture was tightly intertwined with Nazi ideology. So identifying with it _was_ identifying with Nazis. > [@](#): > > Do I have to agree with French, Greek, Israeli or Italian govt policies to identify with those cultures? Does every Jew have to agree with the current Israeli government to identify as a Jew? “Identify with” is not “same as”. Having German roots and living in the US is not the same as being a German in Germany. The two are separate ethnic identities. One is “American German”. The other is “German”. Living in the US and being Jewish is _very_ different from being Jewish and living in Israel. Or Russia. The three are separate ethnic identities. Similar, and sharing ethnicity, but quite separate. And I have experience being part of all three. > [@](#): > > But it is interesting that the Bund’s activities (and of course the Nazis) were probably responsible for _weakening_ the American German’s cultural ties to the homeland in the end. That is when they really assimilated into US culture. But that is an exceptional circumstance. Not every ethnic group was subjected to that challenging situation. Well, Israeli Arabs _are_ subjected to that challenging situation. Some identify with Israel’s enemies (too many - see some examples I gave). Some identify with Israel (and I served in the IDF with some like that). And many are on the fence. If they want to be accepted into Israeli society, getting off the fence seems to be indicated. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/506 "2015-08-15T06:48:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah, what the heck, one more time… > > So, again, is it your premise that non-Jewish residents of Israel enjoy complete equality? And that all stories of oppression and prejudice against them are all a bunch of lies? Seriously? It’s complicated. Do Black Americans enjoy complete equality in the US? While there are anti-discrimination laws, there are still discriminatory policies that affect the Arab Israelis, and the right wing govt is always trying to push more discriminatory laws through the Knesset. But the biggest problem is societal. It’s very segregated; not a melting pot situation. Large percentages of Israeli Jews don’t trust them, don’t want to live with them, and don’t think they should have the same rights as the Jews. Prejudice is rampant. And the recent conflicts have only made things worse. On the other side, the Arab Israelis are torn between the two sides. Most prefer to live in Israel, but it’s not surprising when you consider life in Gaza or the West Bank. Who would want to live like that? But it is very obvious that they are not wanted, and everyone would be happier to see them gone. They are a demographic threat to the Jewish State. So how can they “assimilate” under those circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/507 "2015-08-15T06:52:48Z")
> [@](#): > > …If they want to be accepted into Israeli society, getting off the fence seems to be indicated. So, really, these so-called “Palestinians” have no legitimate complaints, seeing as how Israeli society is so open and welcoming. Why, all they need do is climb down off the fence! > [@](#): > > …Some identify with Israel (and I served in the IDF with some like that)… Like Japanese-Americans in WWII, or black soldiers in Korea and Viet Nam, their service was a testament, a clear statement that America had always played fair and square with them and their people! ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/508 "2015-08-15T07:08:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is mine. Care to respond to it? You forgot I was a leftist? Ideologically, I don’t agree, and I don’t think the US treatment of Germans Italians and Japanese during WWII was right. But I do understand it, just as I understand Israel’s concerns. > [@Terr](#): > > In the 1930s and up to 1945 Germany’s culture was tightly intertwined with Nazi ideology. So identifying with it _was_ identifying with Nazis. No. The Germany they identified with was pre-Nazi era. Things change; people change, but you still have an attachment to those places and people regardless of those changes. Will you discard your wife when she gets old? Plus, a lot of cultural identity involves things like traditions, food, music, folklore, and of course language. Those ties are more enduring. > [@Terr](#): > > “Identify with” is not “same as”. Having German roots and living in the US is not the same as being a German in Germany. The two are separate ethnic identities. One is “American German”. The other is “German”. Living in the US and being Jewish is _very_ different from being Jewish and living in Israel. Or Russia. The three are separate ethnic identities. Similar, and sharing ethnicity, but quite separate. And I have experience being part of all three. Yes, I have a multicultural background so I get that. BTW, that book you cited earlier discusses that, and it is quite interesting; I’m still reading it. > [@Terr](#): > > Well, Israeli Arabs _are_ subjected to that challenging situation. > > Some identify with Israel’s enemies (too many - see some examples I gave). Some identify with Israel (and I served in the IDF with some like that). And many are on the fence. If they want to be accepted into Israeli society, getting off the fence seems to be indicated. Yes. See my reply to **elucidator**. How can they assimilate if Israeli society doesn’t change? Everyone has to change for it to work out. And change isn’t really a Jewish thing. Refusal to change served a purpose for thousands of years, but now it’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/509 "2015-08-15T07:25:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Like Japanese-Americans in WWII, or black soldiers in Korea and Viet Nam, their service was a testament, a clear statement that America had always played fair and square with them and their people! Terr can correct me, but I assume he is referring the the [Druze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze_in_Israel). As I said, it’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/510 "2015-08-15T15:59:14Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Terr can correct me, but I assume he is referring the the [Druze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze_in_Israel). > > As I said, it’s complicated. The Druze are drafted - they chose not to have an exception in law for them. Some Israeli Arabs volunteer for military service - those are the ones I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/511 "2015-08-15T22:17:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The Druze are drafted - they chose not to have an exception in law for them. Some Israeli Arabs volunteer for military service - those are the ones I was talking about. Yes, there are some who volunteer. I don’t know how long ago you served, but I thought they used to be segregated in minority units (even the Druze, in some cases). ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/512 "2015-08-15T22:29:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You truly can’t express it, can you? > > Palestinian society is, itself, multi-cultural. You have some secularized people, basically not religious, perhaps educated in science and law, who listen to western entertainment and read western news; next door to them are highly religious people, who observe the feasts and fasts, and who hold very strong opinions against secularism and the west. > > They are not “the same culture” any more than you and I are. > > Now, instead of just appealing to your own sense of truth, can you actually try to say what you believe? “You don’t get it” and “You’re proving my point” and the like are childish tautologies. Why do you reject the article I linked, which suggests meaningful cultural differences between the West Bank and Gaza? Do you reject meaningful cultural differences between California and Florida, or people of Irish descent in New York and in Dublin? > > Just declaring victory – “I’m right because I’m right, and you don’t get it, do you?” – is childish. If you’ve got something to say, fuckin’ say it! I think you will agree that it would be frustrating to be asked over and over again to be clear, after multiple attempts to clarify - and strictly for your benefit, as no one else was asking. **dropzone** clearly understood what I was saying and broke it down for you as well. At what point do you take some responsibility for your lack of comprehension? At this point I think the problem is that my definition of culture and your definition of culture are too far apart to take the conversation further. I did not see any suggestion of cultural differences in the article you cited. I do not agree that multicultural is defined by differences in education level, degree of religiosity, personal interests, or even geographical distance, as per your examples. I’ve never heard or read anything that matches your definition. Here is my [definition](http://www.livescience.com/21478-what-is-culture-definition-of-culture.html) of culture: Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, defined by everything from language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts. The Center for Advance Research on Language Acquisition goes a step further, defining culture as shared patterns of behaviors and interactions, cognitive constructs and understanding that are learned by socialization. Thus, it can be seen as the growth of a group identity fostered by social patterns unique to the group. Certainly, cultural characteristics will be affected by emigration, but it is a highly variable affect, depending on the individual culture, the conditions of the new location, the reason for emigration, and the number of generations born outside the native location. Complicating this even more in the case of Israel, is that the Palestinian Israelis are not immigrants. They are the people, and descendants of people, who had been living there before it was officially Israel. The Israeli Jews are technically the immigrants or descendants of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/513 "2015-08-16T00:09:32Z")
> [@camille](#): > > . . . Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, defined by everything from language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts. . . . Dr. Who fans are a separate culture from Star Trek fans. Bad definition. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/514 "2015-08-16T02:16:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I consider Israeli Palestinians and West Bank Palestinians and Gaza Palestinians all sufficiently different from each other to warrant the distinctive prefixes, pretty much the same way I would consider New York Irish different from Dublin Irish… More like New York Irish and Boston Irish, except with several fewer generations separating them. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Dr. Who fans are a separate culture from Star Trek fans. Don’t be an ass and look at the second paragraph **camille** quoted. That’s a basic, Anthropology definition of culture, and that’s the one appropriate for this discussion. Israeli Palestinians and West Bank Palestinians and Gaza Palestinians have not been effectively separated much at all, and for far too short a time, do have developed different culture. Isolate them, give them a hundred years, and get back to me. We’ll see what’s changed. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/515 "2015-08-16T04:09:55Z")
The definitions don’t help us know when to “split” and when to “lump.” It’s absurd to imagine that a definition of fewer than forty words can help here; it would take an entire textbook, and we still wouldn’t be much farther ahead. Can one speak reasonably of “Islamic Culture” as a whole? In some ways, yes. Can we speak of “Arab Culture” as a whole? Sometimes, yes. Can we speak of “Palestinian Culture” as a whole? In many cases. And can we divide it further, into Israeli-Palestinian, West-Bank-Palestinian, and Gaza-Palestinian cultures? In some instances, yes, we can. There is no conceivable definition of the word that can cover all of these cases. No one set of rules can govern all the myriad of concerns that any culture uses, both to unite itself and to divide itself. **camille** is being Procrustean in demanding that all Palestinians fit into an indivisible cultural grouping. This is going to be true in some ways, but untrue in others. (And none of this has jack shit to do with whether the political left is anti-Semitic, so what’s the point of this inane highjack anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/516 "2015-08-16T04:57:19Z")
I’m really disturbed by Trinopus’s & Terr’s apparent belief that culture has especially meaningful breaks due to location and local political authority. I guess if you’re using “culture” to mean “present way of living, _in toto_,” that sort of makes sense. But no, I don’t think you become a new race and civilization just because you live on a patch of land conquered and nominally assimilated by a given polity. [sarcasm] But, hey, since you insist, fine. American & French Jews are not Israelis, they’re a different people now, and you can’t have them. Next time Bibi wants to come and shout, “MOVE TO ISRAEL! NOW!” we can tell him that, yes? [/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/517 "2015-08-16T05:07:30Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But no, I don’t think you become a new race and civilization just because you live on a patch of land conquered and nominally assimilated by a given polity. Then you’re denying that Palestinians exist. Because they all came from somewhere else, some a long time ago, most about a hundred years ago or less. As I explained to Ibn Warraq. > [@](#): > > [sarcasm] But, hey, since you insist, fine. American & French Jews are not Israelis, they’re a different people now, and you can’t have them. Next time Bibi wants to come and shout, “MOVE TO ISRAEL! NOW!” we can tell him that, yes? [/sarcasm] Huh? You think you’re making some kind of point? No, American and French Jews are not Israelis. You’re correct. They are Jews, though. So yes, they can move to Israel if they don’t feel safe where they are (as a lot of French Jews don’t). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/518 "2015-08-16T05:15:53Z")
To follow it up with a joke: At the emergency meeting of the UN regarding the conflict in the Middle East, the Israeli representative takes the floor. He starts: “Ladies and gentlemen, before the rest of my speech, I’d like to tell you an old story… When Moses was leading the Jews out of Egypt they needed water and asked him for it. So he struck a rock and a pond appeared full of cool crystal clear water. The people rejoiced and drank and swam. Moses, wishing to clean himself, went behind the rock, disrobed, and dropped into the water. After he washed, he wanted to get dressed, but his clothes were gone. I think it was the Palestinians that stole his clothes…” At that moment the Palestinian UN representative jumps up and with great indignation shouts “Lies! Everyone knows that there were no Palestinians around at that time!” “And with that in mind”, says the Israeli representative, “let me continue with my speech…” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/519 "2015-08-16T14:28:02Z")
Very droll. Now, about that question you don’t seem to be able to read… Is it your premise that non-Jewish residents of Israel enjoy complete equality? And that all stories of oppression and prejudice against them are all a bunch of lies? And if it is true, does this not legitimize the criticism of Israeli policy towards them? Shouldn’t an honest conservative of any nationality join such criticism? Is it that you don’t have an answer, or don’t have one that won’t weaken your narrative? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/520 "2015-08-16T15:47:48Z")
So, when do we get to hear the joke? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=27)