# No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847 "2015-08-03T03:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/521 "2015-08-16T20:11:35Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I’m really disturbed by Trinopus’s & Terr’s apparent belief that culture has especially meaningful breaks due to location and local political authority. . . . I didn’t say anything about political authority, only about location. Also, I didn’t say that culture must have breaks (and I also didn’t say “especially meaningful” breaks) due to location, only that it can. So, when you take away from your quote everything I didn’t actually say…what’s to be disturbed by? (I’m really disturbed by your demand that Slovenians be removed from Montenegro…except you didn’t say that, so it’s okay.) ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/522 "2015-08-16T22:04:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then you’re denying that Palestinians exist. Because they all came from somewhere else, some a long time ago, most about a hundred years ago or less. As I explained to Ibn Warraq. No. This has been debunked so many times, academically and genetically, and only shameless jackasses like **Trinopus** and **Brazil84** still believe it. Don’t pretend that **Ibn Warraq** has been “corrected” on this, in the hope he won’t see it. As I said earlier, this is not helpful for anyone who supports Israel, and at this point it is counterproductive. The days of unquestioned acceptance of misleading “hasbara” are over. The truth does not make Israel’s right to exist illegitimate, so why the desperate need to deny the Palestinians an identity? ‘‘Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history.’’ - [Prof. Yehoshua Porath of the Hebrew University, Jerusalem](http://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/13/opinion/abroad-at-home-there-were-no-indians.html?scp=1&sq=%22There+Were+No+Indians%22&st=nyt) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/523 "2015-08-16T22:37:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The definitions don’t help us know when to “split” and when to “lump.” They only give us an idea of where a line might be. I tend more to the lumper side, as much as anything because human lifespans are so long, but in following a single life one can often see where a culture began to diverge from his. > [@](#): > > It’s absurd to imagine that a definition of fewer than forty words can help here; it would take an entire textbook, and we still wouldn’t be much farther ahead. > > Can one speak reasonably of “Islamic Culture” as a whole? In some ways, yes. Can we speak of “Arab Culture” as a whole? Sometimes, yes. Can we speak of “Palestinian Culture” as a whole? In many cases. And can we divide it further, into Israeli-Palestinian, West-Bank-Palestinian, and Gaza-Palestinian cultures? In some instances, yes, we can. > > There is no conceivable definition of the word that can cover all of these cases. No one set of rules can govern all the myriad of concerns that any culture uses, both to unite itself and to divide itself. 🙂 That’s why, in pursuit of my Anthropology degree, I concentrated more on archaeology than cultural. Trends rather than changes day to day. Lumping rather than splitting–that way madness lies. > [@](#): > > **camille** is being Procrustean in demanding that all Palestinians fit into an indivisible cultural grouping. This is going to be true in some ways, but untrue in others. But is she doing that? Instead, what I see her doing is promoting more of the “true in some ways” than you. You agree on a lot. You just disagree on degree. > [@](#): > > (And none of this has jack shit to do with whether the political left is anti-Semitic, so what’s the point of this inane highjack anyway?) I blame **Terr**. He doesn’t like liberals in general, so he’ll grab the tarbrush for any reason. IIRC (it was a long time ago), this thread was started as a reaction to that, in this case because accusing most American liberals of being anti-semitic is both offensive and inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/524 "2015-08-17T00:04:07Z")
> [@camille](#): > > No. This has been debunked so many times, academically and genetically, and only shameless jackasses like **Trinopus** and **Brazil84** still believe it. Don’t pretend that **Ibn Warraq** has been “corrected” on this, in the hope he won’t see it. It has not been “debunked”. What do you think it means if there is a Palestinian clan “Al-Masri” (the Egyptian). Where do you think they came from? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/525 "2015-08-17T00:36:45Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > They only give us an idea of where a line might be. I tend more to the lumper side, as much as anything because human lifespans are so long, but in following a single life one can often see where a culture began to diverge from his. The question of “subcultures” might be relevant. Are there such things? I can’t imagine anyone denying it. But what possible definition can, unfailingly, tell us whether a group is a “culture” or a “subculture.” In some ways, groups as small as neighborhoods – five or six square blocks – can have “cultural identity” that distinguishes them from all others. Within the West Bank, there are almost certainly some observable cultural differences between inhabitants of one city and another. None of this ought to be controversial… > [@](#): > > 🙂 That’s why, in pursuit of my Anthropology degree, I concentrated more on archaeology than cultural. Trends rather than changes day to day. Lumping rather than splitting–that way madness lies. [Gomez Addams voice] And, ladies and gentlemen, I am that madman! > [@](#): > > But is she doing that? Instead, what I see her doing is promoting more of the “true in some ways” than you. You agree on a lot. You just disagree on degree. Fair enough. I’ll own up to a good measure of fault and guilt in the miscommunication that has occurred. On the other hand, this is the Pit, so I don’t feel obliged to live up to the academic standards found in GD. So there, neener neener, and that’s a really ugly necktie! 😉 > [@](#): > > I blame **Terr**. He doesn’t like liberals in general, so he’ll grab the tarbrush for any reason. IIRC (it was a long time ago), this thread was started as a reaction to that, in this case because accusing most American liberals of being anti-semitic is both offensive and inaccurate. I hate like poison those times that I am on the same side of a debate as **Terr**. It’s like those times I’m on the same side as **Bricker**. Any intellectual justification is negated by an intense feeling of nausea. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/526 "2015-08-17T00:57:17Z")
Subcultures? Do you now understand why I like my cultures to be like my people: dead and defleshed? 😃 There is a very good reason Cultural Anthropology is not a hard science. Fruitflies are what scientists study because they are pretty much all the same. Humans are all different, and they change from day to day. Actuaries, pollsters, and sabermetricians try to predict human behavior, but they aren’t that much better than Jimmy the Greek. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/527 "2015-08-17T01:25:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I hate like poison those times that I am on the same side of a debate as **Terr**. It’s like those times I’m on the same side as **Bricker**. Any intellectual justification is negated by an intense feeling of nausea. I don’t think **Bricker** and **Terr** are on the same level. **Bricker** is at least sometimes right for the right reasons. I don’t feel bad when I agree with him on gay marriage, for example. **Terr** on the other hand only seems to be right when it furthers something else he believes that is horribly wrong. Like here, where his position is in furtherance of his idea that all liberals are antisemitic. The only time I get that “nausea” with **Bricker** is when I’m defending his legalistic positions. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/528 "2015-08-17T02:01:15Z")
Nah, the BDS movement and the European leftists are not anti-Semitic, are they: > **[Reggae singer Matisyahu disinvited from music fest for not endorsing...](https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2015-08-16/ty-article/matisyahu-disinvited-from-music-fest/0000017f-e9ee-df2c-a1ff-ffff097f0000)** > > Jewish-American singer was slated to perform on August 22 at the Rototom Sunsplash Reggae Festival in eastern Spain. The formerly hasidic star was scheduled to perform on August 22 at the Rototom Sunsplash Reggae Festival in eastern Spain. But he had his show cancelled after he refused to release a public statement backing a Palestinian state, according to the Times of Israel. **Matisyahu is not Israeli.** But the Times of Israel reported that the festival was pressured by activists from the BDS movement, which aims to boycott, divest from and sanction Israel, and that other musicians threatened to cancel their performances unless Matisyahu made the declaration. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/529 "2015-08-17T02:13:06Z")
**BigT** , using the Dubya Test, I would enjoy having a beer with **Bricker**. We’d avoid politics, but laugh at lawyers and maybe talk some theology. **Terr** , I’m not so sure about. He seems so angry all the time. ☹ IIRC, I met **Shayna** once (I had been drinking a little, it was a long time ago, my memory is fuzzy. Might’ve been someone else.). I thought we had some online rapport, but IRL I don’t think she liked me. This happens. **Haberdash** is a non-entity to me; I have no sense that he’s real. I have nothing against you or **Trinopus** , though we don’t always agree, and I’m developing a bit of a crush on **camille**. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/530 "2015-08-17T02:17:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nah, the BDS movement and the European leftists are not anti-Semitic, are they Just a reminder that we US leftists don’t like being tarred with the same brush you use on the Yurpeens. Our cultures have diverged enough that we’re nearly different _species_, FFS. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/531 "2015-08-17T03:02:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It has not been “debunked”. What do you think it means if there is a Palestinian clan “Al-Masri” (the Egyptian). Where do you think they came from? Nonsense. You cannot use surnames as irrefutable proof of descent, especially in a place that was subjected to numerous conquests and forced religious conversions. Compounding the problem is the exclusive use of patrilineal descent records in that time period. I’ll use myself as an example. My mother is a French Jew, my father is Greek (mother) and Sicilian (father), but my Sicilian grandfather had a Greek surname, even though he was not Greek, and there is no record of Greek lineage in his family. I have that surname. What does it tell you about my lineage? There are Sicilians with the surname Russo, which means Russian. Are they Russian? Show me a reputable cite that claims these surnames are evidence that it is impossible for the vast majority of Palestinians in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank to be the descendants of people who were there since ancient times. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/532 "2015-08-17T03:11:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > **BigT** , using the Dubya Test, I would enjoy having a beer with **Bricker**. We’d avoid politics, but laugh at lawyers and maybe talk some theology. **Terr** , I’m not so sure about. He seems so angry all the time. ☹ IIRC, I met **Shayna** once (I had been drinking a little, it was a long time ago, my memory is fuzzy. Might’ve been someone else.). I thought we had some online rapport, but IRL I don’t think she liked me. This happens. **Haberdash** is a non-entity to me; I have no sense that he’s real. I have nothing against you or **Trinopus** , though we don’t always agree, and I’m developing a bit of a crush on **camille**. 😉 I can’t resist a laid back pacifist-leftist with a sense of humor. Wish there were more like you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/533 "2015-08-17T03:12:26Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Show me a reputable cite that claims these surnames are evidence that it is impossible for the vast majority of Palestinians in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank to be the descendants of people who were there since ancient times. Of course. Someone with a last name “Egyptian”, “Libyan”, “Syrian”, “Lebanese” etc. etc. etc. MUST be the descendant of people who were in “Palestine” since “ancient times”. Because **camille** wants it to be so. They just took those last names as some kind of whimsy, right? How do you “know”, **camille** , that the Israelis are (all, I presume, since you didn’t specify) “technically the immigrants or descendants of immigrants”. There was an uninterrupted Jewish presence in the land, after all, for thousands of years. Longer than Arabs existed. Exactly how many generations back do your ancestors have to live in the land in order for you to stop being a “descendant of immigrants”? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/534 "2015-08-17T03:29:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. Someone with a last name “Egyptian”, “Libyan”, “Syrian”, “Lebanese” etc. etc. etc. MUST be the descendant of people who were in “Palestine” since “ancient times”. Because **camille** wants it to be so. They just took those last names as some kind of whimsy, right? Not what I said. You are making the claim, so cough up a cite. I’d really be interested. > [@Terr](#): > > How do you “know”, **camille** , that the Israelis are (all, I presume, since you didn’t specify) “technically the immigrants or descendants of immigrants”. There was an uninterrupted Jewish presence in the land, after all, for thousands of years. Longer than Arabs existed. Exactly how many generations back do your ancestors have to live in the land in order for you to stop being a “descendant of immigrants”? I completely agree there was an uninterrupted Jewish presence there as well. In fact there is genetic evidence supporting the theory that many of today’s Palestinians are descendants of the Jews who were allowed to remain behind after the destruction of the Temple. In any case, the genetic similarities between the Jews and the Bedouin, Druze, and Palestinians show that they are all related. Of course there was some migration both ways, but these claims you make are based on a political agenda, and yes both sides are guilty of of that. But genes don’t lie. This is fairly well known and accepted outside of politics. My ex-partners (Israeli Jew and Palestinian) literally presented themselves to me as “cousins” when we first met. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/535 "2015-08-17T03:49:19Z")
Am I just stoned, or is the surname thing a reeeeally thin reed that **Terr** ’s grasping? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/536 "2015-08-17T04:33:47Z")
> [@camille](#): > > There are Sicilians with the surname Russo, which means Russian. Are they Russian? I know you don’t like it when I nitpick, but the surname Russo means “red haired”, not Russian. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/537 "2015-08-17T05:21:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I know you don’t like it when I nitpick, but the surname Russo means “red haired”, not Russian. No. Red haired is\* capelli rossi\* or _capelli tizianeschi_. Russo literally translates as Russian. Russo is a very common name in Sicily. Red hair is not. Of course it does not mean someone with that name is Russian. Some speculate it could have meant someone had a ruddy complexion, rather than olive skin. But you make my point: Names can be misleading. Are you agreeing with Terr’s claim? Do you have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/538 "2015-08-17T05:24:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I know you don’t like it when I nitpick, but the surname Russo means “red haired”, not Russian. [But Tina Russo has brown hair…](http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/looney-tunes-show-cartoon/images/7/7f/200px-Tina.png/revision/latest?cb=20130415073246) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/539 "2015-08-17T05:33:10Z")
> [@camille](#): > > No. Red haired is\* capelli rossi\* or _capelli tizianeschi_. Russo literally translates as Russian. Russo is a very common name in Sicily. Red hair is not. Of course it does not mean someone with that name is Russian. Some speculate it could have meant someone had a ruddy complexion, rather than olive skin. But you make my point: Names can be misleading. I don’t speak Italian or Sicilian. But: > **[Russo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo)** > > Russo may refer to: Russo [ˈrusso] is an Italian surname meaning red-haired. > **[Surname Database: Russo Last Name Origin](https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Russo)** > > Last name meaning Russo: This famous surname is Roman (Latin) in origin. It derives from the word 'rous' meaning red, and describes somebody with red hair or a red complexion... This famous surname is Roman (Latin) in origin. It derives from the word ‘rous’ meaning red, and describes somebody with red hair or a red complexion > **[Sicilian Surnames: History and Onomatology - Best of Sicily Magazine](http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art415.htm)** > > About Sicilian surnames. Russo, with its Italian variant Rosso, is indeed one of the most common surnames in Italy, as often referring to red hair as a reddish complexion - and yes, it does mean Russian, **though that isn’t how it found its way into Sicily**. … [and further on] Russo (red hair or reddish complexion) ================================= Now maybe you can explain how “Masri” doesn’t really mean “from Egypt” and “Mughrabi” doesn’t mean “from Marocco”… ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/540 "2015-08-17T05:40:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Russo, with its Italian variant Rosso, is indeed one of the most common surnames in Italy, as often referring to red hair as a reddish complexion - and yes, it does mean Russian, **though that isn’t how it found its way into Sicily**. So it does mean Russian, doesn’t it? I said it could have referred to a reddish complexion. An Italian or Sicilian wouldn’t use _russo_ to indicate red haired. > [@Terr](#): > > Now maybe you can explain how “Masri” doesn’t really mean “from Egypt” and “Mughrabi” doesn’t mean “from Marocco”… Maybe it’s up to you to prove your claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=28)