# No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847 "2015-08-03T03:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/101 "2015-08-04T18:41:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s also quite hysterical to hear people express extremely strong opinions about Israel … > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Israel hasn’t been a democracy in almost fifty years and was never a “western style social democracy”. Just so you know, you come off as a complete and utter ass, as well as a condescending little prick when you pull shit like this. And you do this rather frequently. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/102 "2015-08-04T20:19:17Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Likud has insisted from the beginning that those territories are properly and historically part of Israel, though. :shrug: True. But the government of Israel has never formally annexed the land (okay, yes, some smallish parts of it.) Also, a minor rebuttal…even if Israel had annexed the land but did not allow the residents to vote, that doesn’t make Israel “not a democracy,” only a bad democracy. The U.S. was a democracy, even in those years when women couldn’t vote. It’s just a better democracy today. So the bloke is wrong, even were his premise correct…which it ain’t. The West Bank is under military occupation – and a pretty weak occupation, given that the Palestinian Authority provides all the basic governmental services. If someone steals a pair of shoes from a shop, it’s Palestinian policemen who give chase, and Palestinian courts who prosecute. Israel occupies the West Bank, but does not govern it. ---
**Author:** ![phantom\_lamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@phantom\_lamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phantom_lamb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/103 "2015-08-04T20:29:20Z")
> [@](#): > > No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!) Could’ve fooled me. And I’m a liberal, just not anti-semitic like a disturbing percentage of others. Look, it’s the same logic of “if so many people keep accusing you of being a racist - you’re probably a racist.” If so many people are under the impression that a large portion of the left is anti-semitic, then _maybe_ there might be something to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/104 "2015-08-04T20:38:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I do not think its wrong for Palestinians to demand an independent Palestinian state. I think it would be wrong of them to demand an independent Muslim state. > > I think Jews are right to demand an independent Israeli state. I think Jews are wrong to demand an independent Jewish state and use that to hold up progress on peace talks. You do realize that Jews and Palestinians are both seperate ethnic groups don’t you? If the Palestinians can have a “Palestinian state” why can’t the Jews have “a Jewish state”. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/105 "2015-08-04T20:38:59Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > Could’ve fooled me. And I’m a liberal, just not anti-semitic like a disturbing percentage of others. > > Look, it’s the same logic of “if so many people keep accusing you of being a racist - you’re probably a racist.” > If so many people are under the impression that a large portion of the left is anti-semitic, then _maybe_ there might be something to it. I’m not sure anyone has argued that there are no liberal or leftist antisemites. Nor that the percentage of liberals who are antisemites, regardless of what that percentage actually is, is not disturbing. \*Antisemitism \*is disturbing, full stop. . ---
**Author:** ![phantom\_lamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@phantom\_lamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phantom_lamb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/106 "2015-08-04T20:41:08Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’m not sure anyone has argued that there are no liberal or leftist antisemites. Nor that the percentage of liberals who are antisemites, regardless of what that percentage actually is, is not disturbing. \*Antisemitism \*is disturbing, full stop. > . Yes, I agree it is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/107 "2015-08-04T20:41:40Z")
> [@](#): > > You do realize that Jews and Palestinians are both seperate ethnic groups don’t you? > > If the Palestinians can have a “Palestinian state” why can’t the Jews have “a Jewish state”. There are any number of Muslims who are not Palestinians. The vast majority, point of fact. How many Jews are not Jews? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/108 "2015-08-04T20:49:49Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > Could’ve fooled me. And I’m a liberal, just not anti-semitic like a disturbing percentage of others. > > Look, it’s the same logic of “if so many people keep accusing you of being a racist - you’re probably a racist.” > If so many people are under the impression that a large portion of the left is anti-semitic, then _maybe_ there might be something to it. I tend to agree. Though if it’s always the same person, they might just be stupid. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/109 "2015-08-04T21:15:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You do realize that Jews and Palestinians are both seperate ethnic groups don’t you? > > If the Palestinians can have a “Palestinian state” why can’t the Jews have “a Jewish state”. I use “Palestinian” in the sense that they are the non-Jewish people, predominantly Muslim and Arabic, who lived or are descended from people who lived in the area now known as Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. To me, the term is mostly a geographical designation while in this context “Jewish” is religious. Yes there are more than one correct designation for people in this area, I should have explained in what context I used them in. Given that, I don’t believe there’s any contradiction. I don’t think supporters of Israel should demand the state be recognized as religious. I would be against any Palestinian state that presumes to be ethnically homogenous or Muslim, but I see it as mainly geographical ---
**Author:** ![phantom\_lamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@phantom\_lamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phantom_lamb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/110 "2015-08-04T22:20:09Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I tend to agree. Though if it’s always the same person, they might just be stupid. It’s not one person, so it doesn’t apply here. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/111 "2015-08-04T22:49:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Given that, I don’t believe there’s any contradiction. I don’t think supporters of Israel should demand the state be recognized as religious. They don’t. Well, some do. But the general demand is that Israel be a Jewish state. Even Israeli Jews who aren’t religious tend to want that. But I don’t think Israel’s ever had a religious Prime Minister or even President, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/112 "2015-08-04T23:08:05Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > Could’ve fooled me. And I’m a liberal, just not anti-semitic like a disturbing percentage of others. > > Look, it’s the same logic of “if so many people keep accusing you of being a racist - you’re probably a racist.” > If so many people are under the impression that a large portion of the left is anti-semitic, then _maybe_ there might be something to it. OK, let’s have a Doper (Shayna? How about Shayna?) go to a Bernie Sanders rally and ask Bernie Sanders why he’s a “Democratic Socialist” if the Left is so virulently and generally anti-Jewish. Not anti-Zionist, not anti-neo-liberal-imperialism, not pro-Palestinian-self-determination, but radically and generally against Jews as _Jews._ And doesn’t that mean he should be a right-winger? After you’re scolded out of the room for talking nonsense, come back here and tell me why \*\*Terr **&** Haberdash \*\*keep implying these things. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/113 "2015-08-04T23:26:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s also quite hysterical to hear people express extremely strong opinions about Israel and then happily and almost proudly admit they have no idea who Benny Morris is. Sorry, but these days my head is stuck more in the 1300s than the 1900s, and I have already demonstrated my general cluelessness about the region’s more-modern history. But my opinions aren’t extremely strong, either. I’m more annoyed than anything. > [@](#): > > It’s a bit like claiming you’re a huge nut for the Civil War and then asking “Who’s James McPherson?” That _sniff_ _popularizer?_ I haven’t read enough, but I’m a slow reader. Forgive me. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/114 "2015-08-04T23:29:55Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > OK, let’s have a Doper (Shayna? How about Shayna?) go to a Bernie Sanders rally and ask Bernie Sanders why he’s a “Democratic Socialist” if the Left is so virulently and generally anti-Jewish. Not anti-Zionist, not anti-neo-liberal-imperialism, not pro-Palestinian-self-determination, but radically and generally against Jews as _Jews._ And doesn’t that mean he should be a right-winger? > > After you’re scolded out of the room for talking nonsense, come back here and tell me why \*\*Terr **&** Haberdash \*\*keep implying these things. Not all Left-wingers are anti-Zionist or anti-Semitic in general. It is just certain branches of the Left that package that message as part of their theme just like their are different branches of Right-wingers, feminists and other political philosophies that don’t share some of the same views as others in the same general group. However, just because every Left-winger doesn’t display those traits doesn’t mean that it is an unfair generalization overall. I agree with **Shayna** and others that it isn’t just stray individuals. It is an integral part of several Leftist political philosophies at least in terms of how they map to the geopolitical scene today. I have never completely understood it myself because I am not a Left-winger but I am not shy about interacting with people that are. Anti-Zionist and/or anti-Semitic messages, while usually carefully packaged in rhetoric, are much more common than you hear from other groups. The kindest reason that I can come up with is that some Leftists automatically assign victim versus persecutor labels to competing groups. Even though Jews have endured thousands of years of persecution and genocide, they are materially and politically stronger today than some other groups so that makes them the oppressors now. I certainly don’t buy it but people with certain political leanings do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/115 "2015-08-04T23:34:59Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > Could’ve fooled me. And I’m a liberal, just not anti-semitic like a disturbing percentage of others. > > Look, it’s the same logic of “if so many people keep accusing you of being a racist - you’re probably a racist.” > If so many people are under the impression that a large portion of the left is anti-semitic, then _maybe_ there might be something to it. That’s, ah… that’s some interesting logic to introduce into a discussion of anti-Semitism, given the sort of things believed by “so many people” about Jews. ---
**Author:** ![phantom\_lamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@phantom\_lamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phantom_lamb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/116 "2015-08-04T23:40:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > OK, let’s have a Doper (Shayna? How about Shayna?) go to a Bernie Sanders rally and ask Bernie Sanders why he’s a “Democratic Socialist” if the Left is so virulently and generally anti-Jewish. Not anti-Zionist, not anti-neo-liberal-imperialism, not pro-Palestinian-self-determination, but radically and generally against Jews as _Jews._ And doesn’t that mean he should be a right-winger? > > After you’re scolded out of the room for talking nonsense, come back here and tell me why \*\*Terr **&** Haberdash \*\*keep implying these things. What the hell are you even talking about? How about this: Go to a Ben Carson rally and ask why he’s a republican when an alarming portion of the right is racist (which it is)? What a weak attempt at making a point. I’m not saying being anti-semitic is the backbone of being a leftist. I’m saying the left does have an unfortunate problem with it. I’ve seen it countless times and still see it. If I, as a European can see it from way over here as well as a whole shitload of others I think we’re on to something. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/117 "2015-08-05T00:04:35Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > What the hell are you even talking about? How about this: Go to a Ben Carson rally and ask why he’s a republican when an alarming portion of the right is racist (which it is)? What a weak attempt at making a point. You realize, of course, that the difference in numbers of conservative racists vs. liberal racists is pretty damned trivial, right? The liberal side has an edge, but it ain’t much. And on both sides the racists are the minority. > [@](#): > > Fortunately, the expression of racism by whites toward blacks has decreased over time, and for Americans in both parties — at least, according to this survey. In 1990, the index of negative racial attitudes stood at 40 percent for white Democrats and 41 percent for white Republicans. > > There hasn’t been much of an overall increase or decrease in the index since Obama took office. On average, between the 2004 and 2006 editions of the surveys — the last two before Obama was either a president or a candidate — the index of negative racial attitudes stood at 22 percent for white Democrats and 26 percent for white Republicans. Those values are within the margin of error for those in the 2010 and 2012 surveys. Note, a 2012 poll had the numbers at 19% negative for Democrats, 27% for Republicans. However the margin of error is quite large which explains the last sentence in the quote. [Linky](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-white-republicans-more-racist-than-white-democrats/). Slee ---
**Author:** ![phantom\_lamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@phantom\_lamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phantom_lamb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/118 "2015-08-05T00:12:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s, ah… that’s some interesting logic to introduce into a discussion of anti-Semitism, given the sort of things believed by “so many people” about Jews. Look. There is nothing I or any of the other people who agree with me can say here to open your eyes. Nothing. The majority of this leftist board is going to bully me and everyone else into their denialist view. I get that. That being said, I’ll bite. This once, and then I’m done. The subject has already been touched upon by a few posters before me. It has to do with jews being perceived as more well-off than other minorities, thus not deserving of as much sympathy as, say, muslims or Native Americans. This results in lefties turning a blind eye to anti-semitism much in the same way they turn a blind eye to hate crimes against white or Christian people. And I _get_ that, I get why it’s inconvenient for the left to do otherwise. I get that it’s _kind of_ coming from a good place but the result is shit. And I’m not fucking _blind_ to it. **Shagnasty** pretty much summed it up in that post a couple of posts back. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/119 "2015-08-05T00:16:01Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > That being said, I’ll bite. This once, and then I’m done. He’s saying that relying on what a lot of people say to determine the nature of a population can lead to “Well, a lot of people say Jews control the world.” ---
**Author:** ![phantom\_lamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@phantom\_lamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phantom_lamb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847/120 "2015-08-05T00:18:31Z")
Thanks. I was quoting Miller but was actually responding to the lot of you. Somehow it ended up the way it did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-the-left-is-not-anti-semitic-good-grief/726847.md?page=7)