# No, there is no "taqiyya" doctrine that lets all Muslims lie for the good of the faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457 "2011-02-15T16:02:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/21 "2011-02-16T19:43:06Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > People lie often. Muslim or not. I don’t need to attribute any particularly Muslim doctrine to anyone to question whether a group in politics might not be on the up-and-up. I’ve noticed in past discussions (not necessarily on this forum) that questioning the veracity of any statement regarding Islam is often met with a similar response as the OP, accusing me of believing in the “taqqiya” thing, which I have never accused anyone of using. That seems to be the root of it. Glutton was recent called out after making the laughably transparent claim that the MB was no more extreme than the American religious right. That their PR is being eaten up and vomited back out by a certain segment of their target audience is, unfortunately, unsurprising. [ > [@](#): > > The Brotherhood would seek “the preservation of honor” by stoning adulterers, punishing gays, requiring Muslim women to cover their heads and shoulders in public and killing Muslims who leave their faith ]([http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-14-1Aegypt14\_CV\_N.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-14-1Aegypt14_CV_N.htm)) But, well, ya know… I suppose if someone claims “And they’re saying it’s ‘taquiya!’” then it’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/22 "2011-02-16T20:37:57Z")
I know Orwell’s politics, I didn’t mean to say he was an ex communist, I meant for an “and” to be there. I think that ends the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/23 "2011-02-16T21:19:34Z")
Hey!! This isn’t a thread about Tequila!! I’m Out a heah! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/24 "2011-02-16T21:44:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Hey!! This isn’t a thread about Tequila!! > I’m Out a heah! No, I’m afraid Muslims know very little about tequila. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/25 "2011-02-16T22:42:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That seems to be the root of it. Glutton was recent called out after making the laughably transparent claim that the MB was no more extreme than the American religious right. That their PR is being eaten up and vomited back out by a certain segment of their target audience is, unfortunately, unsurprising. > > [url=[http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-14-1Aegypt14\_CV\_N.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-14-1Aegypt14_CV_N.htm)] > > But, well, ya know… I suppose if someone claims “And they’re saying it’s ‘taquiya!’” then it’s okay. :rolleyes: The MB in Egypt, or some representatives of it, are saying, now, not that the MB has gone secular, but only that, in essence, it finds secular democracy acceptable for the time being, and will support it and work with it (implicitly, until such time as an Islamic republic is politically possible). Now, they might be lying about even that. But that’s just lying as political movements lie, not because some Islamic doctrine tells them it is moral to lie in such circumstances. There is no such doctrine. **That’s the only point I’m trying to make here.** (Well, that, and that the RW seems to do dishonest things of that kind a **lot** these days, see above discussion of “useful idiots.”) Let all please discontinue use of the word _taqiyya_ to mean such a doctrine, on this Board and anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/26 "2011-02-17T00:02:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > the MB in Egypt, or some representatives of it, are saying, now, not that the MB has gone secular, but only that, in essence, it finds secular democracy acceptable for the time being No. They’re putting out certain PR bits that are picked up and amplified by others. This should not be confused for what they’re actually saying. What they’re actually saying about secular democracy is what I quoted and cited. “The Brotherhood would seek “the preservation of honor” by stoning adulterers, punishing gays, requiring Muslim women to cover their heads and shoulders in public and killing Muslims who leave their faith.” This is the party of Qutb and Al-Banna, and it’s going to take a lot more than a few PR releases for them to show that they’re really ready to embrace a secular republic ruled by laws which enshrine the fundamental rights of minority groups. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But that’s just lying as political movements lie, not because some Islamic doctrine tells them it is moral to lie in such circumstances. Of course. How many times has someone who’s not Valteron argued otherwise on the Dope? And a discussion of useful idiots is hardly the sole province of the right wing. If you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow, after all. Many folks have been willing to champion communism, the Iranian revolution, etc… Even when the actual events were diametrically opposed to what their western champions’ politics actually were. A group that would murder adulterers by stoning them to death, murder apostates for the crime of exercising freedom of religion, persecuted gays and subject women to specific ‘decency’ standards is a moderate? Well, they most likely stand opposed to what most Americans on the left and right would consider to be decent, let alone sane conduct. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/27 "2011-02-17T03:55:45Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > A group that would murder adulterers by stoning them to death, murder apostates for the crime of exercising freedom of religion, persecuted gays and subject women to specific ‘decency’ standards is a moderate? Well, they most likely stand opposed to what most Americans on the left and right would consider to be decent, let alone sane conduct. I’m generally sympathetic to your position contra **BrainGlutton** , but I urge you to be a little fairer here. Nowhere in this thread has anyone called the Muslim Brotherhood “moderate”. You and **BrainGlutton** seem (in fact) to be in violent agreement about that group’s willingness to throw out some PR lies when its ultimate goal is not democracy. Further: whether or not belief in taqiyya holds wide purchase on the SDMB, it’s clearly a myth held onto by a large contingent of less – erm – _discerning_ right-leaning individuals. I don’t think this is a strawman or otherwise an illegitimate topic for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/28 "2011-02-17T11:23:44Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > No—because in Urdu the letters qāf and kāf are pronounced differently, even though they aren’t in Hindi or other Indo-Aryan languages. I learned to speak Urdu from Dakhni dialect speakers. I don’t use Dakhni myself, but I noticed that they make a stronger differentiation between the two sounds than in standard Urdu. > > I must differ, considering how in Islam one’s learning is given more importance than one’s ethnicity. There are other matters given as much importance as learning, such as belief and praxis. But still–“Westerners”? There are lots of Westerners who are Muslim, and lots more who are learned in Islamic studies ‘n’ stuff. I bet it would be taken as offensive if a Westerner said how amusing and exasperating for them it is when Desis learn knowledge of Western origin, like computer science, better than most Westerners. I guess I just can’t see knowledge of objectively falsifiable facts as dependent on ethnicity or even faith, but rather this kind of knowledge is open and in theory equally accessible to all. There are ways of knowing dependent on the experience of belonging to a particular group. But this instance isn’t one of them. > > P.S. the Arabic word for pillow is _wisādah_. The qaf and kaf differentiation is something that is often lost is normal speech, in the media if someone from outside of Karachi is shown emphasizing the qaf is it is often shorthand for “pretentious prick”. So a Pakistani like myself will ordinarily not differentiate in normal speech and will not realise the difference unless the words are written/ So writing about taqqiya in Roman letters or in the spoken form will elicit the same response as was given by me, “what the hell is it about the pillows”. On the second issue I would disagree. Coming from a muslim family and one where knowledge of religion was hammered into us at an early age, I can safely say that concepts such as taqqiya or dhimmi never came up except in the most abstract terms. I never knew what the terms were and my own knowledge of religion is quite broad thanks to my grandparents. Meharbani! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/29 "2011-02-17T16:46:42Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I’m generally sympathetic to your position contra **BrainGlutton** , but I urge you to be a little fairer here. Nowhere in this thread has anyone called the Muslim Brotherhood “moderate”. You’re correct that it wasn’t in this thread, it was a couple back. > [@Is Islamism in Egypt really worth worrying about?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/1): > > Based on [this](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-egypt-brotherhood-20110215,0,4895817.story) article, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has changed in recent decades and is changing still and yet is still too stuffy and old-fashioned for the younger membership. These are not your Ayatollah’s Islamists. Now they’re a lot like the American religious-right (only less violent, less bigoted and less ignorant). Really, they’re more like the center-right Christian Democrat parties of Europe than anything else. What’s the big deal? And while I haven’t seen much in the news about the MB and taquiya, that the MB was used as an example to open this thread put me in mind of the earlier comment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/30 "2011-02-17T19:34:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > But, well, ya know… I suppose if someone claims “And they’re saying it’s ‘taquiya!’” then it’s okay. And do you have any **idea** how intellectually dishonest this is?! Also irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/31 "2011-02-17T20:56:26Z")
Yes, now that you mention it I did think it was pretty intellectually dishonest to cover your mistake about how “moderate” the MB was by starting a thread alleging that those who criticize such formulations are crying “taquiya!”. Didn’t feel I needed to put that fine a point on it though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/32 "2011-02-17T21:07:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, now that you mention it I did think it was pretty intellectually dishonest to cover your mistake about how “moderate” the MB was by starting a thread alleging that those who criticize such formulations are crying “taquiya!”. That is not what I did. And for Og’s and Allah’s sake, if you **must** misuse the word, please learn to spell it right. One “q”, no “u”, two "y"s. This ain’t Qaddafi/Gaddafi/Khadaffi we’re dealing with were. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/33 "2011-02-17T21:30:17Z")
Yeah… that’s pretty much exactly what you did. Unless, of course, you can point to your retraction of you claim that the MB was somehow more moderate than American religious righters? Or speaking of this awful menace of claiming that the MB is bad because of “Taqiya!!!”, please cite, say, a dozen MSM articles and/or dopers (who aren’t Valteron) who’ve made the claim that you’re responding to. Should be easy, yes? So a cite of your retraction and a cite of what you’ve actually responding to would be downright spiffy. Rather than, of course, a thread that suggests that those who criticize claims that the MB is “moderate” are doing so because they’re alleging Islamic-based-dishonesty. Those cites will be along quickly, yes? Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, and cites, surely you can find a cite for me “misusing” the word, yes? We can ignore your bit of ignorance about how there’s only one correct English spelling, even though it’s a transliterated word, just like Quadafi. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/34 "2011-02-17T22:37:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yeah… that’s pretty much exactly what you did. I started two different GD threads at roughly the same time on different but related topics currently much in the air. Any rhetorical connection between the two is **your** invention. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or speaking of this awful menace of claiming that the MB is bad because of “Taqiya!!!”, And I never said that here or there. I do not recall anyone citing to the purported _“taqiyya”_ concept in the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/35 "2011-02-17T22:38:50Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Further: whether or not belief in taqiyya holds wide purchase on the SDMB, it’s clearly a myth held onto by a large contingent of less – erm – _discerning_ right-leaning individuals. I don’t think this is a strawman or otherwise an illegitimate topic for discussion. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/36 "2011-02-17T22:40:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > But, well, ya know… I suppose if someone claims “And they’re saying it’s ‘taquiya!’” then it’s okay. And this lameass attempt at pre-emptive strawmanning is indeed intellectually dishonest, and irrelevant, and in all ways pure-D bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/37 "2011-02-17T22:55:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > rhetorical connection Well, gee, zero cites of your retraction. Zero cites of people on the Dope or the mainstream media making the claim you’re arguing against, and the very first words of this thread are trying to suggest that people distrust your claims about the MB because of “taqiyah!!!” Go figure. Speaking of things you don’t have cites for, still not got a cite for me “misusing” Taqiyah? Almost as if you invented the claim, perhaps? (Figured out what “transliteration” means yet, too?) > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And this lameass attempt You’ve now addressed the same post three times, and still don’t have any coherent points. ah well. Rather obviously, your own argument is not a strawman. I like that you think it is, though. Yet again, do you have a retraction, anywhere, for your rather laughable claim that people who want to murder married folks who sleep around as well as people who convert from Islam to another region, and simply want to ‘punish’ gays are more moderate than the American religious right? Do you have any cites for anybody in the MSM or on the Dope saying that you can’t trust apologias for the MB, like yours, because of “taqiyah!!!”? Or did you, instead, make some very obviously wrong claims about how moderate the MB was and then instead of retracting, claim that anybody was saying “Who cares what the MB in Egypt says they’re going to do?! They really want an Egyptian theocracy and a pan-Islamic Caliphate! You can’t believe anything they say – taqiyya!” Just curious. Care to provide cites for that retraction or anybody using the whole “Taqiyah!!” argument about the MB in the MSM or on the Dope? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/38 "2011-02-17T23:03:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, gee, zero cites of your retraction. Zero relevance of the request. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/39 "2011-02-17T23:26:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is not what I did. > > And for Og’s and Allah’s sake, if you **must** misuse the word, please learn to spell it right. One “q”, no “u”, two "y"s. This ain’t Qaddafi/Gaddafi/Khadaffi we’re dealing with were. His spelling of the word is perfectly fine. It’s translitered. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457/40 "2011-02-17T23:32:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Zero Speaking of zero… zero cites for any admission that you were incorrect about how ‘moderate’ the MB was. Indeed, there is no such admission at all, but you did start a thread claiming that people are disbelieving the apologia because, you claim, they state that the MB is engaged in “taqiyah!!” But you offer up absolutely no cite that people _are_ actually disbelieving the apologia that you and others are offering up because of “taqiyah!!” And you’ve provided no cite for me “misusing” the concept of Taqiyah, either, because of course it never happened. Go figure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-there-is-no-taqiyya-doctrine-that-lets-all-muslims-lie-for-the-good-of-the-faith/571457.md?page=3)