That seems to be the root of it. Glutton was recent called out after making the laughably transparent claim that the MB was no more extreme than the American religious right. That their PR is being eaten up and vomited back out by a certain segment of their target audience is, unfortunately, unsurprising.
:rolleyes: The MB in Egypt, or some representatives of it, are saying, now, not that the MB has gone secular, but only that, in essence, it finds secular democracy acceptable for the time being, and will support it and work with it (implicitly, until such time as an Islamic republic is politically possible). Now, they might be lying about even that. But that’s just lying as political movements lie, not because some Islamic doctrine tells them it is moral to lie in such circumstances. There is no such doctrine. That’s the only point I’m trying to make here. (Well, that, and that the RW seems to do dishonest things of that kind a lot these days, see above discussion of “useful idiots.”) Let all please discontinue use of the word taqiyya to mean such a doctrine, on this Board and anywhere else.
No. They’re putting out certain PR bits that are picked up and amplified by others.
This should not be confused for what they’re actually saying.
What they’re actually saying about secular democracy is what I quoted and cited.
“The Brotherhood would seek “the preservation of honor” by stoning adulterers, punishing gays, requiring Muslim women to cover their heads and shoulders in public and killing Muslims who leave their faith.”
This is the party of Qutb and Al-Banna, and it’s going to take a lot more than a few PR releases for them to show that they’re really ready to embrace a secular republic ruled by laws which enshrine the fundamental rights of minority groups.
Of course. How many times has someone who’s not Valteron argued otherwise on the Dope? And a discussion of useful idiots is hardly the sole province of the right wing. If you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow, after all. Many folks have been willing to champion communism, the Iranian revolution, etc… Even when the actual events were diametrically opposed to what their western champions’ politics actually were.
A group that would murder adulterers by stoning them to death, murder apostates for the crime of exercising freedom of religion, persecuted gays and subject women to specific ‘decency’ standards is a moderate? Well, they most likely stand opposed to what most Americans on the left and right would consider to be decent, let alone sane conduct.
I’m generally sympathetic to your position contra BrainGlutton, but I urge you to be a little fairer here. Nowhere in this thread has anyone called the Muslim Brotherhood “moderate”. You and BrainGlutton seem (in fact) to be in violent agreement about that group’s willingness to throw out some PR lies when its ultimate goal is not democracy.
Further: whether or not belief in taqiyya holds wide purchase on the SDMB, it’s clearly a myth held onto by a large contingent of less – erm – discerning right-leaning individuals. I don’t think this is a strawman or otherwise an illegitimate topic for discussion.
The qaf and kaf differentiation is something that is often lost is normal speech, in the media if someone from outside of Karachi is shown emphasizing the qaf is it is often shorthand for “pretentious prick”. So a Pakistani like myself will ordinarily not differentiate in normal speech and will not realise the difference unless the words are written/ So writing about taqqiya in Roman letters or in the spoken form will elicit the same response as was given by me, “what the hell is it about the pillows”.
On the second issue I would disagree. Coming from a muslim family and one where knowledge of religion was hammered into us at an early age, I can safely say that concepts such as taqqiya or dhimmi never came up except in the most abstract terms. I never knew what the terms were and my own knowledge of religion is quite broad thanks to my grandparents.
Yes, now that you mention it I did think it was pretty intellectually dishonest to cover your mistake about how “moderate” the MB was by starting a thread alleging that those who criticize such formulations are crying “taquiya!”. Didn’t feel I needed to put that fine a point on it though.
Yeah… that’s pretty much exactly what you did. Unless, of course, you can point to your retraction of you claim that the MB was somehow more moderate than American religious righters? Or speaking of this awful menace of claiming that the MB is bad because of “Taqiya!!!”, please cite, say, a dozen MSM articles and/or dopers (who aren’t Valteron) who’ve made the claim that you’re responding to. Should be easy, yes?
So a cite of your retraction and a cite of what you’ve actually responding to would be downright spiffy. Rather than, of course, a thread that suggests that those who criticize claims that the MB is “moderate” are doing so because they’re alleging Islamic-based-dishonesty.
Those cites will be along quickly, yes?
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, and cites, surely you can find a cite for me “misusing” the word, yes?
We can ignore your bit of ignorance about how there’s only one correct English spelling, even though it’s a transliterated word, just like Quadafi.
Well, gee, zero cites of your retraction. Zero cites of people on the Dope or the mainstream media making the claim you’re arguing against, and the very first words of this thread are trying to suggest that people distrust your claims about the MB because of “taqiyah!!!”
Speaking of things you don’t have cites for, still not got a cite for me “misusing” Taqiyah? Almost as if you invented the claim, perhaps?
(Figured out what “transliteration” means yet, too?)
You’ve now addressed the same post three times, and still don’t have any coherent points. ah well. Rather obviously, your own argument is not a strawman. I like that you think it is, though.
Yet again, do you have a retraction, anywhere, for your rather laughable claim that people who want to murder married folks who sleep around as well as people who convert from Islam to another region, and simply want to ‘punish’ gays are more moderate than the American religious right? Do you have any cites for anybody in the MSM or on the Dope saying that you can’t trust apologias for the MB, like yours, because of “taqiyah!!!”?
Or did you, instead, make some very obviously wrong claims about how moderate the MB was and then instead of retracting, claim that anybody was saying “Who cares what the MB in Egypt says they’re going to do?! They really want an Egyptian theocracy and a pan-Islamic Caliphate! You can’t believe anything they say – taqiyya!”
Care to provide cites for that retraction or anybody using the whole “Taqiyah!!” argument about the MB in the MSM or on the Dope?
Speaking of zero… zero cites for any admission that you were incorrect about how ‘moderate’ the MB was. Indeed, there is no such admission at all, but you did start a thread claiming that people are disbelieving the apologia because, you claim, they state that the MB is engaged in “taqiyah!!” But you offer up absolutely no cite that people are actually disbelieving the apologia that you and others are offering up because of “taqiyah!!”
And you’ve provided no cite for me “misusing” the concept of Taqiyah, either, because of course it never happened.