# No Turn on Red: Am I being an over-officious driver? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144 "2010-10-14T16:23:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/41 "2010-10-15T00:57:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Was the law moral and do you want to stand up for the rights of the people for free passage? Was the circumstances clear enough that a safe right on red could have been made. Are you willing to stand up to unjust authority in your own power, or trust in a power higher then that of State authority? God literally is your co-pilot, eh? “Is it safe to go, God? God? I’m counting on you here!” You did the right thing, OP. I got a rolling through a stop sign ticket a couple of years ago, and it cost me $300. Dude in the car behind you has absolutely no business trying to make you break the law when it comes out of YOUR pocket, and, as others have said, this may be a dangerous intersection. I think most of our residential stop signs should be “Yield” signs because no one ever stops for them, and it doesn’t seem to cause a problem, but that’s a whole lot of money out of the city bank account if they can’t write $300 tickets on minor technicalities. For the record, I’m a stickler for laws while driving, but this one is bogus. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/42 "2010-10-15T01:26:12Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Parsing the OP’s subject line very carefully, I would say he’s not being officious at all. He refused to turn right on red, not to prevent the other guy from doing so, but to satisfy his own sensibilities as to how he himself should be driving. > > And FWIW, I think the OP was wise to not violate the no-turn-on-red signage; it was put there because too many people turning right on red were getting involved in accidents at that particular intersection. The intersection closest to my house is interesting in that it has a light-up “no right on red” sign that only kicks on when someone has pushed the pedestrian walk button. Unlike most of the ones I’m used to, this one locks out traffic in all directions for about 45 seconds. There’s another light near me that’s rather annoying from a traffic flow perspective. It goes from one lane to four. Far left is dedicated left-turn and is marked as such with a series of arrows. Far right is dedicated right and, again, is marked with arrows. The middle-left is either left-turn or straight, and the middle-right is straight. Also, the middle-left hand lane is marked with two sets of arrows, one for left turns and one for going straight. These arrows are not always on at the same time, so that it is possible to be stuck behind someone who wants to turn left but can’t because of the red arrow while you, who wants to go straight ahead, has a green arrow. The problem is that on the other side of the intersection is a fairly short merge back to one lane. So the only way to easily move through the intersection is to know this ahead of time and move over to the middle-right lane and then merge left again once clear of the intersection. The first time I saw this I wound up blowing the light as I could clearly see that there was no oncoming traffic and treated the red-left green-straight combination as a green ball. I doubt my out-of-state plates would have kept me from getting a ticket. I often don’t make a right on red even when it isn’t signed. I have a little car that’s low to the ground and it doesn’t take much for my sight line to be bad, and that’s before the asshole in the big SUV to the left of me pulls forward and blocks my view completely. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/43 "2010-10-15T02:26:04Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > What if you weren’t planning on turning right, but were planning on going straight, though? Did angry guy expect you to alter your route just so he cold turn? I hate it when you’re intending to turn right on a two lane road at a no-turn-on-red light and someone behind you decides to create their own turn lane and make an illegal right turn on red. So you’re waiting for your chance to turn red in the only lane that actually exists, and some idiot creates their own out of a parking spot or the side of the road. In my experience they do it more often because they assume you’re going straight than anything else. And the worst is when they manage to cram their car where it doensn’t belong but fail to make the illegal right turn before the light turns green. Then you have two people trying to make a right turn onto one lane and certain knowledge that the one who isn`t really in a lane is an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/44 "2010-10-15T02:39:11Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > So she was declining to turn right on red after stop despite a clear lane . . .. Turning right on red is an option, not a requirement. If the woman doesn’t want to, she doesn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/45 "2010-10-15T03:03:38Z")
This is simple. No right turn on red. Doesn’t matter what time it is, or the conditions of the road. As others have mentioned, it’s unlikely that some random asshole is going to pay your ticket, pay your deductible if there’s an accident, or pay for your hospitalization or funeral if it’s worse. So follow the law, and fuck him. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/46 "2010-10-15T03:04:43Z")
Double post… ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/47 "2010-10-15T04:23:32Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > > > What if you weren’t planning on turning right, but were planning on going straight, though? Did angry guy expect you to alter your route just so he cold turn? > > I hate it when you’re intending to turn right on a two lane road at a no-turn-on-red light and someone behind you decides to create their own turn lane and make an illegal right turn on red. So you’re waiting for your chance to turn red in the only lane that actually exists, and some idiot creates their own out of a parking spot or the side of the road. In my experience they do it more often because they assume you’re going straight than anything else. > > And the worst is when they manage to cram their car where it doensn’t belong but fail to make the illegal right turn before the light turns green. Then you have two people trying to make a right turn onto one lane and certain knowledge that the one who isn`t really in a lane is an idiot. Oh my gosh, someone once did this to me by driving onto the shoulder and passing me on the right in order to make the right turn. Then as he passed me he gave me the finger. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/48 "2010-10-15T05:18:52Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > > [@PennyGaunjworth\_of\_chicago](#): > > > > Perhaps he didn’t want to miss breakfast…or was late for work? > > Doesn’t McDonald’s stop serving breakfast at 10am? > > Kind of puts a whole new spin on this. No, most McD’s serve breakfast until 10:30. Go watch Big Daddy. 😃 More seriously, I used to work morning shift at McD’s. We did cut breakfast off at 10:30 and began serving lunch. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/49 "2010-10-15T05:27:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Even in the middle of the night you have no idea if a cop is lurking somewhere you don’t see him. NO idea. It might actually be very, very safe. It would also give the police every right to pull you over to see if, in fact, you rolled through the light because you were in some way impaired. Or because the town was a little low on funds currently. Boy, you’ve got that right. I used to work SUPER early morning shift at a job (way back in the 80s). And there was a left turn light that seemed to last forEVER and was in the middle of an industrial district. No one EVER coming through at that time of morning. One morning I got impatient and looked around and ran the darned thing. ReeeeeEEEEEEeeeeeee. Yup, cop hiding somewhere, lights off. NEVER EVER argue with a cop. But, I was young and cute back then, and I argued sweetly “but this light lasts forEVER! My job is only just there (points to job barely beyond light and a turn)”. No ticket (thank goodness) but a serious lecture…“a drunk could be screaming through this light at 90mph, you could be killed, we just stopped someone at this intersection doing just THAT the other night”. To the OP, are you in Washington state? I’ve noticed I get honked at when I’m in the right lane, but going straight and I don’t somehow magically beam myself out of the way of right turning cars. In fact, I’ve noticed people honk at other drivers for all sorts of weird little things that seem to depend on the honking driver’s own crabbiness. Strange. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/50 "2010-10-15T05:30:53Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Middle of the night? Turn. Daylight? Sit there. One of my two traffic tickets was for failure to obey a No Turn on Red sign at something like 2:30am. When I got pulled over, something like ten blocks and another turn away and the cop asked me if I knew what I was being stopped for, I was completely honest in answering “no.” ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/51 "2010-10-15T05:36:36Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > > [@Sailboat](#): > > > > So she was declining to turn right on red after stop despite a clear lane . . .. > > Turning right on red is an option, not a requirement. If the woman doesn’t want to, she doesn’t have to. Do you have a cite for that, or is it your personal opinion? To me, sitting in a turning lane when it is perfectly safe and legal to turn is the same as sitting at a stop sign because you don’t feel like crossing the road quite yet. I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/52 "2010-10-15T05:41:38Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I agree that you were right not to make an illegal right turn on red. And note if the red light is a solid red arrow instead of a solid red ball, that means the same thing; no right turn on red. The idiots around here don’t seem to have caught onto that idea. I wouldn’t grasp it either. What’s the point of a red light with an arrow? I’ve honestly never seen one. The red light is always solid, even in turning lanes. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/53 "2010-10-15T06:28:01Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > So she was declining to turn right on red after stop despite a clear lane, and simultaneously demanding everyone else break the law by turning from the center lane. No, she was suggesting that if people were in such a hurry that they were willing to break the law, they should go for it, but she wasn’t turning when she wasn’t prepared to do for their satisfaction. Turning on red isn’t a requirement, it’s an option, and the option goes to the person at the front of the line at the intersection. ---
**Author:** ![SevenOfTeemingMillions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@SevenOfTeemingMillions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SevenOfTeemingMillions)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/54 "2010-10-15T07:55:11Z")
I’m the type of driver who would turn on red if there no other cars around but I would never ever honk or yell at someone who follows the law. I firmly believe you did the right thing, **Erdosain**. This weekend I’ll visit every church, mosque and temple I can find and light candles, incense and the sunday paper in the fervent hope that the jerk driver behind you gets caught breaking the law someday somewhere. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/55 "2010-10-15T22:06:12Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I often don’t make a right on red even when it isn’t signed. I have a little car that’s low to the ground and it doesn’t take much for my sight line to be bad, and that’s before the asshole in the big SUV to the left of me pulls forward and blocks my view completely. _flails_ I have a car that’s low to the ground too and I am overly cautious because of it. I’ve been honked at before because I do not proceed to make my turn, but if _I_ can’t see what’s coming, I ain’t going. One accident in my youth taught me not to do that. I don’t care if it’s a semi behind me that can see for miles that is indicating it is safe for me, I no see, I no go. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/56 "2010-10-15T22:52:16Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > God literally is your co-pilot, eh? “Is it safe to go, God? God? I’m counting on you here!” Actually yes, God is that willing to talk to His children and protect them. I have experienced this many times. If you are God’s child and acknowledge it you are above state authority. God is so willing to be interactive in a person’s live so that no laws of man apply, if we let Him. the only requirement is we act in Love as best as we can. I do agree that the person behind you should not pressure you in the way you described. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/57 "2010-10-15T22:55:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually yes, God is that willing to talk to His children and protect them. I have experienced this many times. If you are God’s child and acknowledge it you are above state authority. God is so willing to be interactive in a person’s live so that no laws of man apply, if we let Him. the only requirement is we act in Love as best as we can. Go away with your tiresome witnessing. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/58 "2010-10-15T23:05:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I agree that you were right not to make an illegal right turn on red. **And note if the red light is a solid red arrow instead of a solid red ball, that means the same thing; no right turn on red**. The idiots around here don’t seem to have caught onto that idea. (bolding mine) its possible thats true where you live but its certainly not universal, the arrow simply indicates a turn lane in every state I can think of. and I agree with several above posters, its not about the ticket ( thats just money) they put those no turn on red signs up for a reason and its usually poor visibility or something strange going on at that intersection. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/59 "2010-10-15T23:28:06Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > **And note if the red light is a solid red arrow instead of a solid red ball, that means the same thing; no right turn on red**. > > its possible thats true where you live but its certainly not universal, the arrow simply indicates a turn lane in every state I can think of. Huh? Every single place i’ve ever been, a red traffic light that is an arrow rather than a circle indicates no turn on red. Here’s an [image](https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhender4/public_html/gen_images/redarow.jpg) that i just grabbed from the California Driver Handbook. > [@](#): > > **Red Arrow:** A red arrow means “STOP.” Remain stopped until the green signal or green arrow appears. Do not turn against a red arrow. And from [New York](http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmanual/chapter04-manual.htm): > [@](#): > > **RED ARROW:** Do not go in the direction of the arrow until the red arrow light goes out and a green light or arrow light goes on. A right or left turn on red is not permitted at a red arrow. This is the rule everywhere i’ve ever driven, i think. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144/60 "2010-10-15T23:47:52Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > > [@Wilbo523](#): > > > > OP behaved appropriately. > > > > However, I have been behind people that will stop at a light that’s red (no sign saying “no turn on red”), and not turn even when there is a merging lane after you turn, and when there’s no traffic coming.:smack: If you do this, I will honk at you and expect you to go. > > If you honk at me in such a situation, be assured I will cease any attempts to turn right on red and just wait for the green light. Right on red is not required, and should only be done if it is safe to do so. The driver at the front is the only person qualified to judge if it is safe. Passive aggressive behavior is so cool! Let’s all do it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-turn-on-red-am-i-being-an-over-officious-driver/557144.md?page=4)