# No WMD's? Strike 1. No Saddam/Qaeda connection? Strike 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715 "2003-06-09T20:40:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/1 "2003-06-09T20:40:46Z")
[Sez the Gray Lady today](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/09/international/worldspecial/09INTE.html) (snicker if you must): > [@](#): > > Two of the highest-ranking leaders of Al Qaeda in American custody have told the C.I.A. in separate interrogations that the terrorist organization did not work jointly with the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein, according to several intelligence officials. > … > In his debriefing, Mr. Zubaydah said Mr. bin Laden had vetoed the idea because he did not want to be beholden to Mr. Hussein, the official said. > > Separately, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the Qaeda chief of operations until his capture on March 1 in Pakistan, has also told interrogators that the group did not work with Mr. Hussein, officials said. Many of us thought that was an exaggeration or near-total fabrication too at the time Powell asserted it as true to the UN, but _nothing_? What incentive would these AQ guys have to make this claim? “Do not let facts get in the way of Truth!” - Don Quixote ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/2 "2003-06-09T21:31:43Z")
Uh… maybe they are simply telling the truth. Considering that the US has ways of making you talk, I doubtful that the statement could be false. Keep in mind that we do condemn torture too, but interrogation is fine. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/3 "2003-06-09T22:16:45Z")
I said somewhere that this war was stupid and crazy, but I should have said that it was wicked. Bush and company pursued this war from more and more indications now for the oil and the hegemony in the Middle East. Susma Rio Sep ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/4 "2003-06-09T23:06:43Z")
Can we list “Haliburton gets non-bidding open-ended Iraqi reconstruction contract” as strike 3? Sounds like a _major_ conflict of interest there, don’cha know… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/5 "2003-06-10T02:45:43Z")
Well, I was just trying to list the most consequential proven Bush/Cheney/Powell lies about the most important thing a President can do, not acts of more venal corruption, but whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/6 "2003-06-10T02:49:14Z")
It’s the venal corruption that explains the lies, though. It also explains the continued willingness of some folks to deny the astounding dishonesty of Bush’s administration. George W. Bush sent American soldiers to die so he and his friends could make money. Not an easy thing to even consider. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/7 "2003-06-10T02:56:47Z")
I just got this off of AP: > [@](#): > > “Iraq had a weapons program,” Bush said. “Intelligence throughout the decade (of the 1990s) showed they had a weapons program. I am absolutely convinced with time we’ll find out they did have a weapons program.” > > Bush did not use the phrase “weapons of mass destruction.” Nor did he promise any remnants of any “weapons program” will be found. [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030610/ap\_on\_go\_pr\_wh/us\_iraq\_weapons&cid=544&ncid=716](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030610/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq_weapons&cid=544&ncid=716) Does Bush think people won’t notice if he starts saying “weapons Program” instead of WMD? Christ on a pogo stick, just about every country in the world has a weapons program. What’s so damning about that. Even though disgusted at the governmental leadership, and there is conflict of interest, to be fair Halliburton is one of a handful C&E firms with middle east experience. They are qualified to do the work. Whether said the award of that work was done in a clear and transparent manner is another question. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/8 "2003-06-10T03:14:55Z")
I think Strike 3 is going to occur once some hearings start on the Hill. Somewhere along the line, the Administration is going to try very hard to keep some of the folks from the intelligence community from testifying truthfully about what went on before the invasion. Bingo! Perjury, obstruction of justice, etc. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/9 "2003-06-10T07:33:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > Does Bush think people won’t notice if he starts saying “weapons Program” instead of WMD? Yes, yes he does. And, you know what, sadly he is probably right. Expect december to begin advancing this argument (weapons programs=act. NBCs) in about 2 weeks when the pundits pick it up. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/10 "2003-06-10T07:43:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Yes, yes he does. And, you know what, sadly he is probably right. Expect december to begin advancing this argument (weapons programs=act. NBCs) in about 2 weeks when the pundits pick it up. \*\* You’re about twelve hours [too late](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189326) with that prediction. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/11 "2003-06-10T09:22:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*You’re about twelve hours [too late](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189326) with that prediction. \*\* Oh bother, how can one keep up? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/12 "2003-06-10T09:37:05Z")
Talking to Bush apologists is like shouting into a bucket. Why is anyone debating the minutae of the war when the current administration’s advisers clearly telegraphed their cynical intentions three bloody years ago? To whit: > [@](#): > > While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, **the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf** transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein. _Rebuilding America’s Defenses_, [Project for the New American Century](http://www.newamericancentury.org), September 2000. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/13 "2003-06-10T11:15:44Z")
I took note of Bush’s use last week of the phrase “weapons of mass murder” rather than weapons of mass destruction. Clearly he is trying to spin his way out of the mess. Slick Georgie. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/14 "2003-06-10T11:43:56Z")
\>George W. Bush sent American soldiers to die so he and his friends could make money. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/15 "2003-06-10T11:59:05Z")
[Cite](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/30/halliburton.ap/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/16 "2003-06-10T12:02:17Z")
To be honest, even I wouldn’t suggest that Halliburton contracts were the primary reason for the war (see my quote above). Just a nice juicy side-benefit for the toadies and cronies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/17 "2003-06-10T12:20:35Z")
I also noted the slip towards “program” spin. Motive? They are sending a new team of searchers in, the old team wasn’t up to the job. Notice they are going to emphasize searching for documentation. Documents are a hell of a lot easier to fabricate than a warehouse full of VX and Scuds. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/18 "2003-06-10T12:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \***Originally posted by China Guy \* > > Does Bush think people won’t notice if he starts saying “weapons Program” instead of WMD?** > > Yes, yes he does. And, you know what, sadly he is probably right. Expect december to begin advancing this argument (weapons programs=act. NBCs) in about 2 weeks when the pundits pick it up. Yes and no. From a standpoint of intelligence failure and/or executive deception, I will be unsatisfied unless actual WMDs are located. We were told there were WMDs. If there were no WMDs, then we were misinformed, and I want to know why. If Bush was deliberately lying, then he deserves some sort of punishment. If the intelligence community screwed up, we need to improve our intelligence agencies. As a casus belli, a WMD program would suffice. From a legal POV, a program would violate Iraq’s agreements, UN resolutions, etc. From a realpolitik POV, a program means a threat of future use of WMDs. It might have beem better to wait until Iraq’s program actually produced stocks of WMDs. However, the coalition didn’t have the ability to start war on demand. It took a lot of politicial, diplomatic, and military, preparation. Ending the threat from an Iraqi WMD program is a lot more important than the precise timing. Finally, if we do find WMDs (or find that there were WMDs, which were moved or stolen or destroyed), then Bush’s current critics will deserve punishment. They will likely receive from the voters in 2004. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/19 "2003-06-10T12:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*I also noted the slip towards “program” spin. Motive? They are sending a new team of searchers in, the old team wasn’t up to the job. Notice they are going to emphasize searching for documentation. > > Documents are a hell of a lot easier to fabricate than a warehouse full of VX and Scuds. \*\* So long as you don’t get Brit spooks to fake them up for you with the same skill as they applied to the Niger uranium ones. And no cite, just an educated guess giving their provenance and the fact Blair is alone in not disowning them. I won’t believe any find of any nature until it has been fully and independently verified. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715/20 "2003-06-10T12:41:30Z")
December, a program? a program? Yalta probably has a weapons program. My three year old has a weapons program if you smell her britches on occaision. The war was sold on massive amounts of WMD that were ready to go on a moments notice and threaten the US if not the entire world. Granted Iraq is the size of Cali, but if you can find cannibis growers in the trinity alps, the greatest military machine in the world ought to be able to find at least a few hundred pounds of the tons of WMD that _were ready to go any second_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wmds-strike-1-no-saddam-qaeda-connection-strike-2/180715.md?page=2)