# No Wonder the Council of Nicaea Banned This Gospel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2015, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347 "2015-03-06T06:30:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/21 "2015-03-06T15:50:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is the Straight Dope. If you continue to post factual errors on easily discovered subjects, I am going to start shutting down your nonsense. I get tired of having to repeatedly correct simple errors that are based on New Age inventions. > > Specifically: > [ul] > [li]Nicaea did not address which books were to be included in the canon. Nicaea did not “ban” any gospel. Any claim that the Council of Nicaea “banned” any work demonstrates that the claimant has never actually studied that Council and is simply repeating nonsense from equally ignorant sources.[/li][li]You are not clear whether you are purportedly quoting the Gospel of the Holy Twelve, (of which we have only a couple of fragments quoted by other authors) or the Gospel of the Nazarene that parallels the Gospel of Matthew and you conveniently left out any links that would allow us to see whether your quote was accurate.[/li][/ul] > > (And if you come back to say that you don’t really want a debate, that you are throwing out concepts, I am going to move this sludge over to IMHO just as I moved the last thread where you admitted that you were not interested in defending your position.) > > [/Moderating] Tom, I’m up for debate, but some members here want me to go do hours worth of research just to prove a point they have no interesting in seeing me prove. I’ve been on that jag before. You’re running this this like it’s a post graduate symposium at Harvard for a PhD in philosophy. If that’s the attitude then it’s obvious that discussion is not what Straight Dope is about and I’m wasting my time. It was short but sweet, but I bid you all adieu. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/22 "2015-03-06T16:02:08Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Tom, I’m up for debate, but some members here want me to go do hours worth of research just to prove a point they have no interesting in seeing me prove. I’ve been on that jag before. You’re running this this like it’s a post graduate symposium at Harvard for a PhD in philosophy. No, no, and no! I’m sorry we’re not explaining this well. All we want is for you to have some _evidence_ for your claims! (And, naturally, the wilder the claim, the greater the evidence is required.) I’m glad you have big ideas, really I am. But when you are _factually incorrect_ in your premises, why should anyone give you a pass? At the end of the day, this site is about fighting ignorance. You are ignorant about the Council of Nicaea, the Gospel of the Twelve, and the Gospel of the Nazarenes. _That’s not a bad thing!_ I’m ignorant about a ton of stuff, all of us are. There’s nothing wrong with being ignorant…provided you are willing to accept it in good grace and work toward knowledge. If you are unable or unwilling to learn, then…buh-bye, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/23 "2015-03-06T16:03:51Z")
The Jesus the conventional gospels presents is highly critical of the religious establishment of the time and the “pious” as being hypocritical and smugly satisfied. I could see the quoted passage being an account of Jesus rebuking someone who said “Why do I need to atone for my sins? I sacrifice a lamb every week!” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/24 "2015-03-06T16:20:32Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > You had some heated theological exchanges. You even had Nicholas of Myra, later St. Nicholas, getting so pissed off, he belted Arius and got thrown in prison. Y’know, when Santa himself is getting into physical violence with fellow clergy, that’s some heavy debate going down. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/25 "2015-03-06T16:22:34Z")
I think we are explaining this well, FWIW. Great Debates is very high on proving your claims. Citations are routinely asked for. That doesn’t mean that GD isn’t about debate, it’s just a more academic level of debate than most message boards on the internet. This can be, yes, frustrating, but also there is value in it. Now, this site has other message boards that don’t require such heavy citations. IMHO is one of them. MPSIMS is another. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/26 "2015-03-06T16:29:06Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Y’know, when Santa himself is getting into physical violence with fellow clergy, that’s some heavy debate going down. “Jolly old St. Nicholas,” indeed! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/27 "2015-03-06T17:39:46Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Tom, I’m up for debate, but some members here want me to go do hours worth of research just to prove a point they have no interesting in seeing me prove. I’ve been on that jag before. You’re running this this like it’s a post graduate symposium at Harvard for a PhD in philosophy. > > If that’s the attitude then it’s obvious that discussion is not what Straight Dope is about and I’m wasting my time. It was short but sweet, but I bid you all adieu. You’re not at a graduate symposium at Harvard, but if you post 19th century forgeries as if they were early Christian documents, then you’ve got some splaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/28 "2015-03-06T17:45:44Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > If that’s the attitude then it’s obvious that discussion is not what Straight Dope is about and I’m wasting my time. It was short but sweet, but I bid you all adieu. Yes, you are wasting your time. I hope you have better luck elsewhere! ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/29 "2015-03-06T17:49:55Z")
I think it’s a rather nice paragraph and quite in line with Jesus’ teaching otherwise: sacrificing animals (and humans) on the alter should be done away with as it servers no purpose and is just overall not a good thing. That you want to take it and twist it into something to do with an obscure agenda you apparently feel strongly about: meh. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/30 "2015-03-06T18:35:16Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Tom, I’m up for debate, but some members here want me to go do hours worth of research just to prove a point they have no interesting in seeing me prove. I’ve been on that jag before. You’re running this this like it’s a post graduate symposium at Harvard for a PhD in philosophy. > > If that’s the attitude then it’s obvious that discussion is not what Straight Dope is about and I’m wasting my time. It was short but sweet, but I bid you all adieu. I’ll miss your posts and everyone’s discussion of them. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/31 "2015-03-06T18:49:39Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Tom, I’m up for debate, but some members here want me to go do hours worth of research just to prove a point they have no interesting in seeing me prove. I’ve been on that jag before. You’re running this this like it’s a post graduate symposium at Harvard for a PhD in philosophy. Desiring that assertions should be backed up with evidence before we accept them shouldn’t be considered a quirk of the most highly educated; it should be deeply ingrained in EVERYONE from birth. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/32 "2015-03-06T19:11:59Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > It was short but sweet, but I bid you all adieu. Well, short anyway. Buhbye! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/33 "2015-03-06T20:20:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > “Jolly old St. Nicholas,” indeed! 😃 You better watch out. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/34 "2015-03-06T22:11:46Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Desiring that assertions should be backed up with evidence before we accept them shouldn’t be considered a quirk of the most highly educated; it should be deeply ingrained in EVERYONE from birth. I was thinking that. It’d be sad if such a low bar was sufficient for graduate work at Harvard. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/35 "2015-03-06T22:15:06Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I was thinking that. It’d be sad if such a low bar was sufficient for graduate work at Harvard. What I find ‘funny’ - is that the OP declared himself a ‘skeptic’ in his first thread, yet doesn’t seem to truly be very skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/36 "2015-03-06T23:08:40Z")
Looks like he’s gone to seek a more impressionable audience. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/37 "2015-03-06T23:37:32Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > … > but I bid you all adieu. See everyone, there really is a God. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/38 "2015-03-06T23:41:48Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > **tomndebb** , thank you for posting those corrections, but I think you should have done so as a poster and not as a moderator. As I understand it, it’s not the moderators’ job to be the Accuracy Police. Probably true. I had just encountered his declaration in his other thread (after 180+ posts), that he was not out to “convince” anyone of his beliefs and that he had no interest in providing evidence for his wild claims. I then encountered one more silly (New Age) misrepresentation of the facts of Nicaea with what appeared to be the beginning of another round of _here are some unsubstantiated claims; you go find the evidence to support them_ and it tripped my Moderator alarm. Perhaps I should have cut this thread more slack, but it looked very much like the earlier “I am not here to argue” opening being repeated. If one is going to open a non-debate in the debate forum, one should probably not do so with non-facts. It makes my teeth hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/39 "2015-03-06T23:47:17Z")
> [@simster](#): > > What I find ‘funny’ - is that the OP declared himself a ‘skeptic’ in his first thread, yet doesn’t seem to truly be very skeptical. He also doesn’t seem to be, y’know, seeking the truth. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347/40 "2015-03-07T02:39:12Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Sure. I’m game for anything that makes this more fun. > > But I don’t see the controversy about the dating. The text existed in 175 and was one of the thousands of texts that came up for review in 325 at the Council. > > So a bunch of ignorant hayseeds calling themselves "church fathers’ vote on what to include and what not to include based on whether it lines up with the doctrine they were trying to initiate at the Council, namely that Jesus Christ was the Son of God made flesh who came to the earth to become a substitutionary sacrifice for us; by dying on the cross Christ’s blood redeems us from our sins if we believe He rose from the dead and ascended on high. > > that’s the Nicaean Creed essentially. Anything that didn’t fall into line with that was banned. The Gospel of the Twelve didn’t line up with that as I plainly demonstrated and so it had to be thrown out. That’s all I asserted. 🙂 According to the psalmist all men or at least Jewish men were gods and sons of God. And According to John 10 Jesus reminded the pharisees that their fathers also called themselves sons of God. when they accused him of blasphemy. It would seem that the word 'God" didn’t mean creator of all things, just something or some person with power and strength, hence the god of thunder , lightening and sun gods etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-council-of-nicaea-banned-this-gospel/714347.md?page=3)