# No wonder the English Language is going to hell \[b\]Astroboy\[/b\]. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148 "2002-04-01T01:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/1 "2002-04-01T01:46:57Z")
**Astroboy** , you told us you were 36, and your profile says you’re an English teacher (where you teach doesn’t really matter). Belioeve me, nobody is going to think you’re, “like, all OLD and stuff” if you construct a sentence in that way…nor that you’re an English teacher. I brought this to the Pit because, although I think it’s just a minor puff of smoke rather than a true flame, your sentence points up a problem that really rankles me. The English language is being so abused by people like teachers and, maybe even worse, television news anchors, that kids hardly know what correct English is anymore. Your use of “like” and “and stuff” points up the problem, because as a 36-year-old, and a teacher, you shouldn’t be talking and writing as if you were in middle school. You should be setting an example. I am constantly irritated by news anchors who mispronounce common English words. I don’t get upset with others, but I do with them, because I believe that, whether they know it or not, they (and you) are the stewards of the language. Educated people, for example, should know that “complex” has two pronunciations, depending on the part of speech, _and that they are not interchangeable._ The word **com** plex is a noun, referring to an aggregation of buildings or a psychological syndrome. The word com **plex** is an adjective, modifying a noun. News anchors are constantly referring to someone having a **com** plex problem when they mean com **plex**. The only ones with a **com** plex problem should be archetects and mental patients. That’s only one example, but that’s the point. It’s an _example_, a poor example set by people to whom youngsters look for the _right_ example. “But, Peter Jennings says it that way!” “But, my teacher said…” You get the point. By the way, happy birthday! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/2 "2002-04-01T01:59:00Z")
Bullshit. He’s not instructing others in how to speak, nor is he using a formal register. Believe it or not, “like” and “and stuff” are used in English informal registers, including in the lect that Astro speaks. He can speak any damn way he pleases, and I don’t imagine he’s interested in your approval. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/3 "2002-04-01T01:59:28Z")
:eek: Way to invoke Gaudere’s law, there. I’m sure I could pick out at least three points where your grammar is less than stellar. But that is quite irrelevant, I suppose. My main point is this: nitpick much? “Like” and “stuff” in the uses quoted above are already heavily embedded in our language, and why certain professions must hold to **your** ideal of the English language is beyond me. BTW, you may be entirely right about the complex thing, but I have never hear dof it before. Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/4 "2002-04-01T02:01:56Z")
I’m not sure if it makes any difference, but **Astroboy** is teaching English as a second language in Korea. I could definitely see how a conversational tone would help with fluency. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/5 "2002-04-01T02:07:23Z")
Here are some cites: my _Canadian Oxford Dictionary_ gives COMplex for both adjective and noun. My _Random House College Webster’s_ gives comPLEX for the adjective and COMplex for both adjective and noun, as does [m-w.com](http://m-w.com) . So at least according to those sources, DesertGeezer is barking up the wrong tree. ---
**Author:** ![Merhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Merhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/6 "2002-04-01T02:11:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > [BThe only ones with a **com** plex problem should be archetects and mental patients._\* That should be like, uhm, arch **i** tects 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/7 "2002-04-01T02:20:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr. Lao \* > \*\*I’m not sure if it makes any difference, but **Astroboy** is teaching English as a second language in Korea. I could definitely see how a conversational tone would help with fluency. But that’s just me. \*\* It’s not just you, **Dr. Lao**. I agree. I teach English at the same fine institution where our esteemed **Astroboy** teaches, and I can say that the one best way to turn these students against the teacher, and against English, is to be too pedantic and proper. There’s nothing wrong with knowing correct English, and I think **Astroboy** does. Then again, lots of our students know English grammar pretty well. What they lack is practice using the language. It’s not easy to connect to a class of shy Korean students, some of whom have a life-long distrust of anything connected with the US. A relaxed style goes farther toward creating a willingness to use English than relentless correctness. I like good English, but jeez, a pit thread for this? Some of our classes do demand a stricter, more academic approach. The conversation classes would be hurt by that approach. Anyway, who says we have to post in the same style that we use at work? ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/8 "2002-04-01T02:34:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\*Way to invoke Gaudere’s law, there. I’m sure I could pick out at least three points where your grammar is less than stellar. But that is quite irrelevant, I suppose. \*\* Feel free to do so. > [@](#): > > \*\*My main point is this: nitpick much? “Like” and “stuff” in the uses quoted above are already heavily embedded in our language, and why certain professions must hold to _your_ ideal of the English language is beyond me. \*\* You did go to school, didn’t you? But if you think middle-schooler slang is proper English for an adult, you didn’t pay much attention in class. Informal speech is fine, but, like, man, it wouldn’t be boss for someone my age to sound as if I were still stuck in the sixties. Some of us grow up…and old.:rolleyes: \*\* > [@](#): > > BTW, you may be entirely right about the complex thing, but I have never hear dof it before. Cite, please? \*\* What? You want the name of a textbook? I’m pushing sixty! If you want example from television, just pay attention to the news broadcasts…or commercials. And, before you jump on “commercials” (or my beginning a sentence with “And,” for that matter :)) just remember that the people who are hired as announcers and news readers are supposed to have college degrees. Too often they don’t show it. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/9 "2002-04-01T02:39:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merhouse \* > \*\* > > That should be like, uhm, arch **i** tects 🙂 \*\* Oh, Gawd! Did I really do that? I so wanted to be perfect…at least there! :eek: Guess I’m just a :wally ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/10 "2002-04-01T02:42:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Here are some cites: my _Canadian Oxford Dictionary_ gives COMplex for both adjective and noun. My _Random House College Webster’s_ gives comPLEX for the adjective and COMplex for both adjective and noun, as does [m-w.com](http://m-w.com) . So at least according to those sources, DesertGeezer is barking up the wrong tree. \*\* The “authorities” have capitulated. _ **I** _ shall not! So there!😛 ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/11 "2002-04-01T02:58:04Z")
the above is an actual ad jingle from the 1960’s. It drove English teachers up the proverbial wall. Why? and as to dictionaries: there are two basic types: a) descriptive (usful for persons learning a colloquial language) b) prescriptive (for those who know the language) in the case of the former, if enough idiots mis-use, mis-pronounce (sp) a word, that INCORRECT usage will be shown. in the case of the latter, only the CORRECT usage/pronounciation (sp) is shown. Hence, while **DesertGeezer** ’s illustration of “complex” is CORRECT, there are enough imbeciles butchering the language, that the incorrect usage/pronounciation can be found in ‘dictionaries’ (and, since this is the PIT: FUCK descriptive dictionaries!) ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/12 "2002-04-01T03:00:58Z")
my mother was an English teacher. I graded midddle/junior high school papers. there are at least a FEW people from that town who damn well know the language! ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/13 "2002-04-01T03:03:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\*the above is an actual ad jingle from the 1960’s. > > It drove English teachers up the proverbial wall. > > Why? > and as to dictionaries: > > there are two basic types: > > a) descriptive (usful for persons learning a colloquial language) > > b) prescriptive (for those who know the language) > > in the case of the former, if enough idiots mis-use, mis-pronounce (sp) a word, that INCORRECT usage will be shown. > > in the case of the latter, only the CORRECT usage/pronounciation (sp) is shown. > > Hence, while **DesertGeezer** ’s illustration of “complex” is CORRECT, there are enough imbeciles butchering the language, that the incorrect usage/pronounciation can be found in ‘dictionaries’ > > (and, since this is the PIT: FUCK descriptive dictionaries!) \*\* **Happy** , you’re my kind of **heathen!** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/14 "2002-04-01T03:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > \*\* > You did go to school, didn’t you? But if you think middle-schooler slang is proper English for an adult, you didn’t pay much attention in class. Informal speech is fine, but, like, man, it wouldn’t be boss for someone my age to sound as if I were still stuck in the sixties. Some of us grow up…and old.:rolleyes: > \*\* And some of us, to develop our own ‘voices’ on the Board choose to disregard some of the “formal” rules of English. Perhaps you’d like to criticize Twain for his use of the vernacular? Or are you just jealous that **Astro** has a clear, yet identifable writing style and…well… Fenris, bored with “I’m not as popular as you” flames. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/15 "2002-04-01T03:11:02Z")
The differentiation of different parts of speech through subtle pronunciation changes is a common phenomenon in English. Usually the noun form will have a stronger emphasis on an earlier syllable. Examples: The group will re **cord** a new **re** cord this spring. The soldier decided to de **sert** in the **de** sert. Infinitesmals are an in **te** gral part of the **in** tegral. Physicists con **struct** a new **con** struct when they run out of everyday concepts. Don’t a **buse** the English language; we have enough **a** buse as it is. Note that even when the **accent** is on the same syllable, such as the case of “abuse”, the **emphasis** is not the same. The noun form is “ah-buce”, but the verb form is “ah-buhse”. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/16 "2002-04-01T03:11:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > > And some of us, to develop our own ‘voices’ on the Board choose to disregard some of the “formal” rules of English. > > Perhaps you’d like to criticize Twain for his use of the vernacular? > > Or are you just jealous that **Astro** has a clear, yet identifable writing style and…well… > > Fenris, bored with “I’m not as popular as you” flames. \*\* Twain used vernacular in the context of his characters’ ages and environment. He also used popular _adult_ vernacular of his own time in his other writing. Fine. And Robert Fulghum writes incomplete sentences…and is brilliant. But adults trying to sound like young teenagers are merely pathetic. Jealous? Of what. I know who I am, and I don’t need to convince people that I’ve still got pimples and a squeaky voice to have writing style. I may sound pedantic to you, but Bertrand Russell would have loved me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/17 "2002-04-01T03:38:38Z")
we have a total of **TWO** literate adults on this thread. stupid kids… ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/18 "2002-04-01T03:47:46Z")
Those who brag about having grown up, didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/19 "2002-04-01T04:11:23Z")
When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up. - C.S. Lewis ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/20 "2002-04-01T04:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Note that even when the accent is on the same syllable, such as the case of “abuse”, the emphasis is not the same. The noun form is “ah-buce”, but the verb form is “ah-buhse”. Would you please explain to this poor ignorant slut of a third-year linguistics major what you mean by “emphasis” in this context? I’ve not heard that word used to refer to the difference between a voiced and voiceless consonant before. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148.md?page=2)