# No wonder the English Language is going to hell \[b\]Astroboy\[/b\]. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148 "2002-04-01T01:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/21 "2002-04-01T04:43:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* > > Would you please explain to this poor ignorant slut of a third-year linguistics major what you mean by “emphasis” in this context? I’ve not heard that word used to refer to the difference between a voiced and voiceless consonant before. \*\* which may explain your confusion re. ‘complex’. do they have live political debates in Canada? English or French? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/22 "2002-04-01T04:48:30Z")
…there’s a killer Yorkie out for his blood. Mind your ankles, dude–that’s one mo-fo crazed lap dog. I won’t say this is the lamest Pit rant I’ve ever heard–I’ve heard worse–but it’s certainly right up there in the Top 10. :rolleyes: Eh, Geezer, BTW, it’s customary, when flaming someone for a specific post, to include a link to the thread in question, so’s the rest of us can see exactly why your rage burns with the fire of a thousand 2-pound canines with pink ribbons in their topknots. Normally, out of mere curiosity, and in a spirit of helpfulness and moving the discussion along, I’d look it up and post it for ya, but this time…eh, I think this time I’ll let you do the wrassling with the Search engine, as I have to go over to [cnn.com](http://cnn.com) and see if there’s an update on the iceberg lettuce crisis… ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/23 "2002-04-01T04:53:07Z")
**matt\_mcl** is being a smart-ass but is absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/24 "2002-04-01T05:00:46Z")
**matt\_mcl** is being a smart-ass but is absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/25 "2002-04-01T05:28:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\* > I won’t say this is the lamest Pit rant I’ve ever heard–I’ve heard worse–but it’s certainly right up there in the Top 10. :rolleyes: > \*\* So why did you deign to post, being as this is such lame excercise? Got the iceberg situation under control? ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/26 "2002-04-01T06:06:14Z")
:eek: Great Merciful Heavens! I’ve been **pitted**! Now I know how an olive feels!😃 And on my birthday, too! Have you no feelings, sirrah?😉 **DesertGeezer** , my usage of the slang phrasing (link [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=106772)) in a sentence in which I was declaring myself to be old was _meant_ to be, you know, like humorous and somewhat facetious and stuff. Apparently it didn’t come across that way! I offer my most humble and abject apologies. Do I teach things like that in my classes? HELL yes! I teach English conversation, and understanding English conversations (especially for native Korean speakers) depends, to great degree, on some basic undertanding of the culture. That includes many things… and I try to at least touch upon all of them. I do not see myself as a grammarian, nor do I make any claims to be one (although I think my grammar and syntax are pretty good, on the whole)! I teach slang, idiomatic expressions, body language, culture, and a whole slew of other things designed to aid my students in understanding spoken English. I do not teach grammar; most of my students already know the grammar fairly well. I want my students to feel free to come to me and ask questions like “What does it mean ‘skanky ho?’” Where else are they going to learn what was meant by that? Heck, I had a fairly long conversation with a class last week about giving people the finger (Koreans think it’s funny, and I don’t want them to get punched out if they ever travel to the west…)! I’m rambling now… what was my point? I had one here somewhere…😕 Anyway, um… yeah! So there! Neener, neener, neener!😛 Oops! I did it again! (Now you got me quoting that Brittney Spears chick!) > [@](#): > > By the way, happy birthday! Thank you! 🆒 For the record, I’d like to point out that this thread caused a rather uncomfortable incident this morning at work. The esteemed **Mr.O** walked up to me in the hall, _sniffed_ me, and said, “Is that BBQ sauce?” Took me a second to figure out what the heck he was talking about (I had seen this thread by then, but hadn’t had a chance to reply yet…).😃 **Proofreading VERY carefully before I hit the submit button!** ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/27 "2002-04-01T07:09:05Z")
Hey, HappyHeathen… how’s the view up on that horse? ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/28 "2002-04-01T08:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Astroboy14 \* > [B \*\*DesertGeezer\*\*, my usage of the slang phrasing (link [here]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=106772](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=106772))) in a sentence in which I was declaring myself to be old was meant to be, you know, like humorous and somewhat facetious and stuff. Apparently it didn’t come across that way! I offer my most humble and abject apologies._\* No apology necessary, I misread you. And I’m sorry to have overreacted. > [@](#): > > \*\* (although I think my grammar and syntax are pretty good, on the whole)!\*\* Better than most native speakers. (Yes, I realize that sentence fragment was ungrammatical.:D) > [@](#): > > **Heck, I had a fairly long conversation with a class last week about giving people the finger (Koreans think it’s funny, and I don’t want them to get punched out if they ever travel to the west…)!** Punched out hell. In some areas they could get shot! Some of us are hotheads and some of the hotheads have guns (minor hijack intended to infuriate certain individuals from another thread…you know who you are.:p) > [@](#): > > \*\*Anyway, um… yeah! So there! Neener, neener, neener!😛 \*\* Hahahahaha!! **Astroboy,** you are one phat dude! 🆒 Your reasons for “speaking kid” make sense in the contex of your classroom. Here, where English is generally not the second language (with some exceptions which are the subject of much debate in Southern California), I really think English teachers, and, for that matter, _all_ teachers should be a little more pedantic and a little less “cool.” I know when I was in school (in the dark ages of the fifties and sixties) if a teacher had used current juvinile slang in the classroom I would have had no respect for him/her. I expected teachers to be the adults, and to behave that way. > [@](#): > > **For the record, I’d like to point out that this thread caused a rather uncomfortable incident this morning at work. The esteemed Mr.O walked up to me in the hall, _sniffed_ me, and said, “Is that BBQ sauce?” Took me a second to figure out what the heck he was talking about (I had seen this thread by then, but hadn’t had a chance to reply yet…)** **Mr.O** sounds like a pretty cool dude as well.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/29 "2002-04-01T08:59:23Z")
God bless you both, **DesertGeezer** and **happyheathen**. It’s because of folks like you that people will pay me $40 an hour just to have a conversation with them. Japanese students spend anywhere from 1 to 3 hours every day for 6 years studying English, yet I can reduce them to confused silence just by asking “What’s up?” Why? Because they spend that entire time studying nothing but grammar, grammar, grammar. I’ve met high school students who know enough minor grammar rules to creep out William Safire, yet are competely incapable of communicating an idea, let alone an emotion. The concept that the “correct” way to speak to your boss, the “correct” way to speak to a co-worker and the “correct” way to speak to your best friend are not the same is something they’ve never encountered before (despite distinct politeness levels being a conerstone of the Japanese language) because they’ve had it hammered into their heads by their teachers that there is one, and only one, correct way to speak the language, and idioms, colloqialisms and slang play absolutely no part in it. (run-on sentences are another issue) So yes, when I have students who want to learn English for travel or socializing, I’m going to show them how the people they’ll encounter will speak. They respect me for it because I’m teaching them what they want to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/30 "2002-04-01T13:32:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Hahahahaha!! Astroboy, you are one phat dude! Hey! What kinda cheap shot is that? I’ve been dieting! Really!:mad: Also, shouldn’t that be “d00d”?😃 **Sublight** , preach it brother! I can’t believe how much money people here will pay you just to chat with them! Unreal! I don’t do private lessons anymore… among the reasons I stopped is that I felt kind of guilty charging the going rate. In fact, I got a call earlier this afternoon from a nice lady who wanted me to do an hour seminar on Wednesday. I had to decline because **Tommy Two-Ties** and I have a meeting with our publisher that afternoon, but I _think_ she said that it paid around $50. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/31 "2002-04-01T13:43:19Z")
No one has addressed **Happy Heathen** ’s question: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\*“Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should.” > > the above is an actual ad jingle from the 1960’s. > > It drove English teachers up the proverbial wall. > > Why? Hmmm… I’ve been puzzling over this for a couple of hours now, slightly hindered by a birthday party buzz. The best guess I can come up with right now is that it is an incorrect usage of the word “good.” Would “Winston tastes _delicious_, as a cigarette should.” be more satisfactory to '60’s English teachers? It doesn’t scan very well, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/32 "2002-04-01T13:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > **which may explain your confusion re. ‘complex’.** I’m not confused: all of my dictionaries agree. At any rate, I’ll check the phonetics text again, but I’m pretty sure that, as odd as it sounds, the voiced/voiceless distinction is not the same as the emphasis/no emphasis distinction. > [@](#): > > \*\*do they have live political debates in Canada? English or French? \*\* Both. Funny you should mention - I have a friend who has taken _perfectionnement-_ level French. He knows all the rules. The exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions (or exceptions[sup]5[/sup], you could call them). He _writes_ beautiful French - much better than I can. But the poor dear has such trouble with his accent, colloquial word use, phrases, etc., that he has a great deal of difficulty making himself understood. I’ve never studied a good deal of the grammar. I sometimes confuse masculine and feminine, and I would never release an important document in French without having someone proofread it. Essentially, I finished learning it by living with a francophone for six months and dealing constantly with speakers of colloquial Québécois French. And it’s a good thing, because now I speak it fluently, with a very good accent, and receive compliments about my spoken French all the time. I ran a campaign almost entirely in French two years ago, have had to speak it constantly while working at jobs and for my metro hobby, and (hell) in everyday life in this province. I feel that this, like Sublight’s anecdote, can tell us about the relative worth of prescriptive vs. descriptive grammar in linguistic competence. Interesting, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/33 "2002-04-01T13:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\*my mother was an English teacher. I graded midddle/junior high school papers. > > there are at least a FEW people from that town who damn well know the language! \*\* So exactly how many **d’s** are in “middle”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/34 "2002-04-01T13:55:18Z")
about the cigarette jingle, i’m thinking that it shouldn’t be “_like_ a cigarette should” instead it should be “_as_ a cigarette should” but i could be completely wrong. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/35 "2002-04-01T15:27:33Z")
Grammar geek checking in… The problems with the Winston jingle are two-fold. A) as **Matt** pointed out, “tastes good” is incorrect because the adjective “good” is being wrongly used as an adverb to modify the verb “tastes.” B) In the phrase “like a cigarette should,” the preposition “like” is being used incorrectly. English grammar demands that the correlative conjunction “as” be used–“as a cigarette should.” On the other hand, the slogan works well as an example of the colloquial American dialect of English. I do not wish to get into the descriptive vs. prescriptive grammar discussion. I will say that **Sublight** and **Astroboy14** are absolutely correct on the futility of teaching grammar without context to non-native students. Koreans take English grammar classes from about the third year of elementary school through the last year of high school. A Korean student can conjugate an irregular verb perfectly, but he cannot understand a news report or a pop song. Teaching conversational English requires teaching students to understand slang and the language of the people, not just the dry and tired rules of a textbook. When I taught in Korea and Hong Kong, I used information gap activities, chain drills, and pattern drills disguised as games to get students to speak to each other. I also taught them the different levels of speech, so that they could use “Wassup?,” “How’s it going?,”“How are you?,” and “How do you do?” with equal facility. One textbook series I used, _Spectrum_, combined grammar lessons with sentence pattern drills to teach conversational English. It taught students to understand different accents and dialects, and even included lessons on speech-fillers, such as “um,” “er,” and “uh.” Re: **Astroboy** ’s posting style I believe that Dopers here generally acknowledge that I am an educated and literate poster, yet I, too, will use slang and colloquial speech in my posts, particularly if I’m being facetious or coy. “So, uh, you’re, hmm, kinda hot, d@@d,” would be an example. It’s called _style_; look into it. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/36 "2002-04-01T16:37:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Grammar geek checking in… > The problems with the Winston jingle are two-fold. A) as **Matt** pointed out, “tastes good” is incorrect because the adjective “good” is being wrongly used as an adverb to modify the verb “tastes.” \*\* Um, I didn’t say that; **Astroboy** did. What’s more, I wouldn’t have said it, because it’s wrong. According to my _Little, Brown Essential Handbook for Writers:_ > [@](#): > > Adjective with linking verb: _felt bad_ > > A modifier after a verb should be an adjective if it describes the subject, an adverb if it describes a verb. In the first example below, the linking verb _felt_ describes connects the subject and an adjective describing the subject. > > The sailors felt _bad._ > [@](#): > > Linking verb: a verb that links, or connects, a subject and a word that renames or describes the subject (a subject comlement)… The linking verbs are the forms of _be_, the verbs of the senses (_look, sound, smell, feel, **taste** )…_ [Boldface mine.] “Taste” is a linking verb, and therefore, it is perfectly proper to follow it with the adjective “good.” (What would the alternative be? _Winston tastes well_?) ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/37 "2002-04-01T16:40:48Z")
Surely only a senseless knobbo with an arse tighter than the micropores in Goretex could deny the validity of conversational lects. Major bigups to **Astroboy** , **matt\_mcl** , **SPOOFE** and **gobear**. My constant respect to go with you like the gleaming light o’ knowledge, boys. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/38 "2002-04-01T16:40:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Grammar geek checking in… > The problems with the Winston jingle are two-fold. A) as **Matt** pointed out, “tastes good” is incorrect because the adjective “good” is being wrongly used as an adverb to modify the verb “tastes.” \*\* Um, I didn’t say that; **Astroboy** did. What’s more, I wouldn’t have said it, because it’s wrong. According to my _Little, Brown Essential Handbook for Writers:_ > [@](#): > > Adjective with linking verb: _felt bad_ > > A modifier after a verb should be an adjective if it describes the subject, an adverb if it describes a verb. In the first example below, the linking verb _felt_ describes connects the subject and an adjective describing the subject. > > The sailors felt _bad._ > [@](#): > > Linking verb: a verb that links, or connects, a subject and a word that renames or describes the subject (a subject comlement)… The linking verbs are the forms of _be_, the verbs of the senses (_look, sound, smell, feel, **taste** )…_ [Boldface mine.] “Taste” is a linking verb, and therefore, it is perfectly proper to follow it with the adjective “good.” (What would the alternative be? _Winston tastes well_?) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/39 "2002-04-01T17:08:24Z")
I checked with _Words Into Type_ and _The Gregg Reference Manual_ and… they agreed with **Matt**. [sub]Damn, damn, damn, damn…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148/40 "2002-04-01T20:02:52Z")
OK - As many of you who are going to get the as/like ‘thing’ (or should that be ‘stuff’?) have already done so. For extra credit: Accept/Except Excise (adj. vs. verb) gender/sex celibate/chaste and for the post-grads: which/that [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-the-english-language-is-going-to-hell-b-astroboy-b/101148.md?page=3)