# No wonder today's kids are all screwed up!They're being 'taken seriously'! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073 "2003-07-26T13:07:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/21 "2003-07-26T23:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Primaflora \* > \*\*…I can see the value in common preferences which are not taken to extremes. I know parents who I like and respect who do follow this way of life and their kids so far are not axe murderers. \*\* Well, absolutely, if there truly are idiots that fail to recognize the boundaries of “common preference” then they weren’t going to make great parents _anyway_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/22 "2003-07-27T00:07:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I\_Dig\_Bad\_Boys \* > **Well, even if not all parents these days subscribe directly to the TCS method, certain aspects of it have crept slowly into the parental handbooks one reads when one is pregnant (or at least the ones I read for the heck of it one day. Don’t ask. I don’t know why I did it either.).** “not all” is a lousy paraphrasing of “hardly any” > [@](#): > > \*\* > They all seem to advocate being more a friend than a parent and people who’ve never had kids don’t know any better. They are afraid to discipline their kids because they remember how they were disciplined as children and hated it.\*\* Advocating you should be a friend to your children!? The bastards! > [@](#): > > \*\* > As a retail employee, maybe I run into the very worst of these parents and their heathenish mutant offspring and that’s clouded my judgement. I dunno. > > IDBB \*\* Stupid me, I thought you were a child-psychologist, or something. **Do you have reason to believe that the “heathenish mutants” you have to deal with have a greater prevalence among the children of liberal parents (who might see child discipline as a co-operative and non-coercive matter)?** ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/23 "2003-07-27T00:08:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Primaflora \* > \*\*Great Unwashed, the goal of TCS theory is to find a Common Preference which suits all members of the family, not just the adults. > > So the nits problem theoretically should be solved by the parents finding a way and sharing their theories about why the nits are a bad thing. In reality if the parents ‘fail’ to share their theories correctly and do not convince the kid it is more worthwhile to treat the nits, everybody gets nits. > > With the paedophile example, the expectation is that if the child wants to spend time with the paedophile, then the parent finds a way for the kid to do it safely. > > If it is impossible to find a CP, then the child’s preference takes priority. Thus the nit infection. > > I don’t practise TCS and I have no desire to do so. I’ve been flamed extensively by people who do see it as a desirable way to parent. But I can see the value in common preferences which are not taken to extremes. I know parents who I like and respect who do follow this way of life and their kids so far are not axe murderers. \*\* Have you gone barking mad? If the kid has nits because the parents refuse to take of the situation, the kid should be removed from custody and the parents jailed for child abuse. I won’t even go to the pedophilia example. You’ve stated the entire problem with TCS when you said “the child’s preference takes priority”. On what planet??? A child’s “prefrences” don’t mean diddly-squat. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/24 "2003-07-27T00:11:29Z")
My fave from that site > [@](#): > > In Praise of Ignorance, by David Deutsch “Innocence, properly conceived, is a positive attribute. It is the ignorance that comes from a voluntary decision not to engage (or not to engage yet) with a particular area of complex knowledge. Innocence in that sense is essential for all genuine learning. Compulsory teaching is the destruction of innocence, forcing the victims to waste the opportunity, which comes only once in each lifetime, to encounter that knowledge for the first time. It is no wonder, then, that pumping information prematurely into people’s minds simply triggers emergency procedures that do everything in their power to shield the recipient from engaging with that information, and that the usual result is the permanent destruction of the recipient’s ability to engage with information of that type. How many people have a feeling that there is something rich and wonderful in science, or in mathematics, or in Shakespeare, but that it is somehow inaccessible to them? Is that not a tragedy? If they could have acted on that same impulse innocently, at the moment when they were ready, what then could possibly have spoiled those rich and wonderful areas of knowledge for them?” Reader’s comment: “This is quite simply one of the most important articles ever published.” ---
**Author:** ![Primaflora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Primaflora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Primaflora)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/25 "2003-07-27T02:32:12Z")
milroyj, no, I haven’t gone barking mad but you have misread my posts if you think for one microsecond that my kids get their way if I can’t engineer a common preference. Or that my kids hang out with paedophiles or jump off roofs. Being able to explain TCS doesn’t mean I do it or that I believe in it as a childrearing philosophy. I’m only this au fait with TCS as a result of being beaten over the head repeatedly by zealots 😉 on parenting lists. I don’t have a problem with the concept that if there are choices to be made (what flavour ice cream to buy, what movie to see, what colour to paint their bedroom FE) I’m willing to discuss a common preference but trust me that’s about all I took from TCS. astro the really fun bits start when you’re arguing with an ardent TCS’er and they begin redefining the English language. In a lot of ways TCS strongly resembles a cult. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/26 "2003-07-27T03:03:35Z")
Well, one example they gave on the list was-say the kid wants to go to the park, but the parent is in the middle of a really good book and doesn’t want to leave the house. The parent begins suggesting ways the child can find to do something so the parent doesn’t “sacrifice” his wants, without upsetting the child. So Mom says, “Hey, you know, what about that Lego village you’ve been working on?” And the child says, “Oh yeah, okay, cool!” Stuff like that, okay, fine. But these people take it to a ridiculous extreme. Their theory is that ALL coercion is bad. ALL of it. And because a child didn’t chose to be born, but the parents did, it’s the parents who have to make it so the child has complete automony. They’re very much anti-school, they don’t believe in learning disabilities or mental illness, they’re hardcore libertarians, (libertarianism-while I disagree with it, is all well and good, but wrong when taken to extremes). **milroyj** -read the site for yourself. No, it’s NOT wide-spread at all. But it IS amusing and fun to rag on them. One woman compared forcibly changing a child’s diaper to rape. As for David Deutshbag, I recall a member telling me privately that all the carrots are missing from his vegetable drawer, he’s such a tightass. ---
**Author:** ![Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/27 "2003-07-27T04:51:55Z")
Anybody here other than me laughing because the OP was written by a not-a-long-way-ouuta-her-teens childless person? Yeah raising kids is easy. No I NEVER have days when I give in just because I am tired. HAH! I have found that my son reacts very well to choices. And when one of the choices is a loss of privileges he usually does what I want of him. He is 7. He runs and jumps in my lap and says “Your my bestest mommy.” That’s worth lettin him have his way now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/28 "2003-07-27T05:40:37Z")
This reminds me of the last fad - the ‘self esteem at all costs’ philosophy. Can’t fail the kids, because it’ll hurt their self esteem. Can’t have them playing competitive games, because losing hurts their self esteem. Can’t grade them, can’t criticise them, must maintain their self esteem at all costs. Now they’re finding out that we raised a generation of people with great self-esteem - but for no reason. So they’ve become a bunch of obnoxious selfish snots, who think they’re great at everything. Gee, who saw that coming? NOTE TO POTENTIAL FLAMERS: Obviously, this does not mean YOU. You bucked the odds, and are truly worthy of our praise. ---
**Author:** ![TeaRoses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@TeaRoses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaRoses)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/29 "2003-07-27T10:56:04Z")
I’ve never been on the list but I have known several people who were. I haven’t read the website since it was much smaller, but I have communicated with a very committed TCS parent online, back in my homeschooling days. I’m rather torn on this. I honestly don’t think any of the TCS parents I knew were bad parents or even close to bad parents. Then again, I never heard any of them say the whole family got nits or any of these other horror stories. My own parenting is such a mess (I won’t go into it, but I will say we’re in family therapy) that TCS couldn’t possibly have hurt, but I never tried it. I don’t think “elements” of TCS are creeping into anything. As has been stated here, its a very, very all-or-nothing philosophy with extremely few adherents. Elements of what might be called permissiveness, yes, and whether that’s a good thing or a bad one I don’t know either. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/30 "2003-07-27T11:44:48Z")
… Are you kidding me?!? One of the first words a kid learns to SAY is “no”! The only way that’d fly in MY house is if the kids have killed me and buried me in the backyard. An entire family with friggin LICE because the kid didn’t want anyone to touch his head?!? Oh, good sweet lord, HELL no. Got room in that boat, **milroyj**? I’m with you on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/31 "2003-07-27T12:59:05Z")
Guin > [@](#): > > They’re very much anti-school, they don’t believe in learning disabilities or mental illness, they’re hardcore libertarians, (libertarianism-while I disagree with it, is all well and good, but wrong when taken to extremes). Gah! :eek: Not hardly! Children are not rights bearing entities — that is, they are not capable of giving meaningful consent. It is therefore not a coercion to make decisions on their behalf. In fact, making decisions on behalf of their children is a huge part of the parents’ contractual responsibility. There is absolutely _nothing_ libertarian about any theory that will abandon decision-making processes or entrust them over to children. While children do not bear rights, their parents do bear obligations, the primary one being to ensure that the children grow up _to be_ rights bearing entities. There is no better method for this than loving discipline. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/32 "2003-07-27T16:28:54Z")
Some people are shitty parents. Some, like the examples on the TCS website, are shitty parents because they are far too permissive with their children and cannot effectively PARENT them. Others, like **milroyj** , are shitty parents because they are assholes. Being a good parent means striking a balance between respecting your children and listening to what they want, and, when necessary, setting boundaries and making and enforcing rules. Too much or too little of either is suboptimal. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/33 "2003-07-27T16:36:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alereon \* > **Others, like milroyj, are shitty parents because they are assholes.** Where in the hell did that attack come from? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/34 "2003-07-27T16:42:45Z")
**Lib** , they call themselves libertarians. I agree with you, but they see coercion as bad ALWAYS. Even when you save someone’s life, they still say you should appologize later. I don’t think all the people on the list are bad. Just a select few-like the people who run it, and that. Sarah Fitz-Clarence (I thought it was Sarah Lawrence?!), David Deutsch, and a few others are complete and utter morons. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/35 "2003-07-27T16:43:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*A child’s “prefrences” don’t mean diddly-squat. \*\* I’m sorry, I should have quoted in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/36 "2003-07-27T16:44:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alereon \* > **Others, like milroyj, are shitty parents because they are assholes.** > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > > \*\*Where in the hell did that attack come from? 😕 \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > **A child’s “prefrences” don’t mean diddly-squat.** I don’t think the complaint is that you typoed, either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/37 "2003-07-27T16:46:29Z")
If I’d had a _proper_ updragging, I wouldn’t have simulposted. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/38 "2003-07-27T16:52:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alereon \* > \*\*I’m sorry, I should have quoted in the first place. \*\* It still wouldn’t have made a difference. What the fuck planet are you from? Do you even have kids? As much as I always try to take into consideration what the buglet wants, and accomidate him whenever possible, in the end, his preference means didly-squat if it conflicts with mine as a parent. That’s the problem with these TCS idiots in a nutshell. Eventually, judgement calls must be made, and they are having the person with the least amount of experience, who is least qualified to make them, be the one to make the call. It’s upside down. Saying that a child’s opinion dosen’t matter is the truth: It dosen’t. Good parents will do all they can to make sure the child has input, but when the rubber meats the road…Sorry, kid, but your opinion means bupkis. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/39 "2003-07-27T17:01:20Z")
When it comes down to a child’s health, welfare, or safety, a child’s preferences don’t mean jack. Those issues are the responsibility of the parents. And having an _untreated_ lice infestation that affects the entire family is a health issue. I may be an asshole, but not for the reason you allege. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073/40 "2003-07-27T17:02:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*It still wouldn’t have made a difference. What the fuck planet are you from? Do you even have kids? As much as I always try to take into consideration what the buglet wants, and accomidate him whenever possible, in the end, his preference means didly-squat if it conflicts with mine as a parent. That’s the problem with these TCS idiots in a nutshell. Eventually, judgement calls must be made, and they are having the person with the least amount of experience, who is least qualified to make them, be the one to make the call. It’s upside down. Saying that a child’s opinion dosen’t matter is the truth: It dosen’t. Good parents will do all they can to make sure the child has input, but when the rubber meats the road…Sorry, kid, but your opinion means bupkis. \*\* What the fuck do you mean? Do you mean that when “push comes to shove” your opinion counts most? 'cause that’s a whole different thing to _ **WeirdDaviditta** ’s preferences mean diddly-squat_! But then you reiterate, "Saying that a child’s opinion dosen’t matter is the truth: It doesn’t. " If this is truly your position, and not just an over-hasty remark, then just maybe you should go fuck yourself – less chance of you procreating that way! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-wonder-todays-kids-are-all-screwed-up-theyre-being-taken-seriously/191073.md?page=3)