# No, you are not a doctor! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423 "2008-10-11T03:27:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/181 "2008-10-16T13:12:15Z")
It’s a bit rich to come over all precious after your childish taunting of **Q.E.D.** , y’know. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/182 "2008-10-16T13:16:20Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Well, you’ve told me to “Fuck off”. That classy response should be enough. So you have nothing? I hadn’t realised but my PPRuNe thread’s been moved to the Cabin Crew forum, so the answers are more likely to be from flight attendants. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/183 "2008-10-16T13:38:39Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Well, you’ve told me to “Fuck off”. That classy response should be enough. You know, at this point it would be classy of **YOU** to admit that you may be mistaken, having provided no cites of your own, and wait until the responses from the experts come back. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/184 "2008-10-16T15:36:06Z")
> [@leander](#): > > To be clear: > > Until we get real evidence from FAs and pilots about the situation with flight medical emergencies, we are all just speculating on the significance of the title “Dr.” in the air. Possibly true. But we can make certain reasonable inferences based on what the airlines ask their own passengers who book tickets on the internet. The web is far and away the most common tool used for booking plane travel these days, and if the airlines wanted to make particular, medical distinctions in the use of the “Dr” honorofic, one would expect that they might implement this on their websites as well. As i said earlier in the thread, i’ve booked tickets online with multiple US and Australian airlines in the past 8 years. In every case, i’ve been given a set of titles (Mr, Dr, etc.) to choose from. And in not one case has there been any attempt by the airline to request or mandate that the use of Dr be reserved for those with a medical degree. Nor have they, in my experience, ever made any other efforts to discover which passengers might have valuable emergency medical skills. I’ve never been asked if i was a nurse or an EMT, and have never been asked whether i have any first aid or other early response training. You would think, if the title Dr had significance beyond a simple honorific for the airlines, they might have gone out of their way to make this known to the millions of people who use their services every day. And yet no-one in this thread has provided a single piece of evidence that the airlines give a flying fuck about what Dr actually means when you book an airline ticket. Remember, the primary claim made in the OP was that airlines DO, in fact, want only medical doctors to use the Dr title. When one is making a claim like this, it behooves one to back it up with some actual evidence. Do you have ANY evidence, even anecdotal, that the airlines do make this distinction? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/185 "2008-10-16T16:07:41Z")
[Here’s something](http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/business/news/tm_headline=airline-targets-flying-doctors&method=full&objectid=18535389&siteid=50061-name_page.html) that might qualify as a little more than anecdotal evidence. It’s a story from last year about how German airlines Lufthansa was specifically seeking out doctors and offering them extra miles in exchange for registering with a special program that would identify physicians on board an aircraft. > [@](#): > > Dieter Grotepass, Lufthansa’s UK and Ireland general manager, said: “We want to work with the medical profession to provide quick and effective assistance for any passenger who requires medical assistance on board a Lufthansa aircraft.” > > He added: "When a doctor who has registered uses their Miles and More number to book a flight, information on the doctor’s medical expertise will appear on the passenger list. > > "So, in a medical emergency, the purser will be able to approach the doctor discreetly to ask for help. > > “This will remove the need for any ‘is there a doctor on board?’ announcement along with the possible unrest which it can cause.” This strongly suggests to me that, in the absence of a specific program like this, airlines generally have to make an announcement to find out who the medical doctors are. At the very least, it provides some evidence that _this particular airline_ did not specifically identify medical doctors in the manifest prior to instituting this program. Then there’s this from the British Airways website" > [@](#): > > A Good Samaritan is a doctor or other health professional who offers assistance with a medical emergency. Occasionally cabin crew may ask if there are any health professionals on board who are willing to volunteer to assist if the situation appears serious and beyond the experience or training of the crew, or if specifically requested by the MedLink physician. > > We will indemnify a ‘Good Samaritan’ health professional against any legal liability that might arise from their assistance with a medical emergency on the aircraft. In addition, some countries, such as the USA, have enacted legislation, which protects health professionals from litigation in ‘Good Samaritan’ situations. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/186 "2008-10-16T18:44:39Z")
> [@leander](#): > > As I said earlier, I take no pleasure in beating up on the weak and the stupid. But since you’ve continued to put yourself out there… > > 1. Your original assertion was that one could add letters to the end of their name when booking a flight. That was a stupid and ignorant point, which was proven wrong. > > 2. Your 2nd point was a Google cite that was 10 yrs old, as others pointed out. They also pointed out the problems with your so called argument. > > 3. I recently pointed out that you are the butt of jokes around here. Did you miss the 3 page thread about your jr modding? I’ll be more than happy to address your incorrect statements 1 & 2 if, and only if, you can explain the relevance of #3 to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/187 "2008-10-16T19:11:04Z")
Now that I think about it, has anyone here actually seen the passenger manifest that the flight attendants use? I haven’t, but I’d not be surprised if the titles were missing altogether\*. If not, then these forms are going to show a huge number of “Right Reverends” and “Admirals.” Even for names of ambiguous sexuality, like “Pat” or “Sean,” you’ve got a seat number, so the title isn’t necessary. [sub]For the pedantic, i.e., **leander** , I am not offering this as a cite, anecdotal or otherwise. It is just my take on the matter.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/188 "2008-10-16T20:22:13Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > It not a PhD’s fault that our society is rather witless-- a PhD is not to be blamed for the ignorance of airlines and flight crews (and the general public) who are convinced that ‘doctor’ means physician, period. It’s just one more sign of our sorely under-educated, intellectually lazy culture. Exactly right. (And no, I’m not saying that airline personnel are indeed ignorant. Rather, I’m agreeing that scholars shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to accommodate those who are ignorant in that manner.) This is why it’s frustrating to see supposedly educated people insist “But most people don’t think of non-physicians as doctors!” First, because that comment doesn’t give the public enough credit. And second, because when people do think in that manner, it’s their own darn fault. Every ten-year-old should know that “doctors” aren’t necessarily physicians. Why should we expect grown adults to be less well-informed? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/189 "2008-10-16T21:02:28Z")
> [@](#): > > “This will remove the need for any ‘is there a doctor on board?’ announcement along with the possible unrest which it can cause.” What “unrest” is likely to occur in this situation? Although there’s potential for a brawl in the event of an emergency, if a chiropractor, naturopath and internist all arrive on the scene at the same time. Supposedly true story: At an early 20th century baseball game (described in the book _Crazy '08_), a spectator became ill and someone got on a megaphone to request that any doctor in the stands report to home plate. Two men got to their feet, came over the fence on opposite sides of the field and started walking towards the plate. Each one, noticing the other, began to walk faster, then started running. They arrived at home plate simultaneously. The crowd cheered. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/190 "2008-10-16T21:36:24Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > This is why it’s frustrating to see supposedly educated people insist “But most people don’t think of non-physicians as doctors!” As I said earlier, I think a lot of the confusion may stem from the traditional etiquette of using “Dr.” as an honorific outside of professional contexts. Many people may in fact be aware that Ph.D.'s use the title “Dr.” professionally, but still not think of them as people who should be addressed as “Dr.” in everyday life, simply because according to traditional etiquette, that is Not Done. Conventionally (and, as I noted before, there’s no logical reason for it, it’s just the way it is), only MD’s use the title “Dr.” in non-job-related situations. And according to Miss Manners (who, like it or not, is the closest thing to an official authority on correct etiquette in American culture that exists today), the practice of Ph.D.'s using the honorific “Dr.” is **still** Not Done. So don’t be surprised if many people still expect Ph.D.'s to Not Do it. It’s not stupidity, it’s not under-education or intellectual laziness (at least not in many cases): it’s just awareness of an etiquette custom that many Ph.D.'s don’t know about, or consider outmoded, but which is still widely recognized. I’m not saying that you have to defer to that etiquette custom, especially if you think it ought to change. That’s how etiquette customs do change over time, after all: more and more people stop following a particular custom, and eventually it becomes obsolete. So if you’re a Ph.D. and want to use “Dr.” on personal airline reservations, magazine address labels, charity subscriptions, etc., go ahead and buck tradition: lots of other Ph.D.'s are doing it too. Just don’t take it personally when other people sometimes react as though you’re doing something incorrect. According to the rules of etiquette as currently formulated, what you’re doing still is incorrect. (And no, I’m afraid we can’t get around the issue just by saying that Miss Manners knows nothing about academia. She’s related to a bunch of academic professionals herself. The fact is, there still are a lot of us Ph.D.'s who don’t object to the traditional prohibition on using our academic titles outside of the academy, and don’t mind abiding by that rule, arbitrary and old-fashioned though it may be.) ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/191 "2008-10-16T22:13:29Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > It’s a bit rich to come over all precious after your childish taunting of **Q.E.D.** , y’know. > [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > You know, at this point it would be classy of **YOU** to admit that you may be mistaken, having provided no cites of your own, and wait until the responses from the experts come back. You’re both right. Look, I take no pleasure in beating up on QED. It’s beneath me. But what he does on these boards – throwing out nonsense that he’s googled in every thread – is really antithetical to the mission of this place. And that irks me. As far as this thread, my original point was that antecdotal evidence is not useful, as there are other potential scenarios that we may not be aware of. BUT – I am happy to concede that I may be entirely wrong in my assertion. I am neither a doctor nor a FA, so I just don’t know. I do find it amusing that Death Ray’s post over at the PPRuNe thread has caused them to also debate the merits of Ph.D’s calling themselves “Dr.”. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/192 "2008-10-16T22:56:35Z")
> [@leander](#): > > You’re both right. > > Look, I take no pleasure in beating up on QED. It’s beneath me. Actually, it’s out of your reach, not beneath you. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/193 "2008-10-16T22:57:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Many people may in fact be aware that Ph.D.'s use the title “Dr.” professionally, but still not think of them as people who should be addressed as “Dr.” in everyday life, simply because according to traditional etiquette, that is Not Done. Anyone who thinks that is simply misinformed. Consider Dr. Martin Luther King, who I cited earlier. Or Joyce Brothers, who is routinely referred to as “Doctor” even when she simply appears on a game show. And I don’t care what Miss Manners thinks. On this particular matter, she’s wrong. > [@](#): > > It’s not stupidity, it’s not under-education or intellectual laziness (at least not in many cases): … Admittedly, not always. For some, it’s based on this erroneous notion that one should not address a non-physician as “doctor” outside of an academic context. Still, when people tell a non-physician “You’re not a real doctor!”, then that’s ignorance, plain and simple. > [@](#): > > (And no, I’m afraid we can’t get around the issue just by saying that Miss Manners knows nothing about academia. She’s related to a bunch of academic professionals herself. The fact is, there still are a lot of us Ph.D.'s who don’t object to the traditional prohibition on using our academic titles outside of the academy, and don’t mind abiding by that rule, arbitrary and old-fashioned though it may be.) I see no “traditional prohibition” here. What I see is a custom adopted by some out of misinformation. And I say this as a Ph.D. who does **not** insist on being addressed as “Doctor,” and who almost always urges people to address me by my first name instead. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/194 "2008-10-16T23:41:05Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Anyone who thinks that is simply misinformed. Dude. Chill. I’m not attempting to prescribe the way things **ought** to be when it comes to the use of “Dr.” in social contexts. I’m just describing what **is** , like it or not, the traditional etiquette of the situation. Many etiquette experts—including Miss Manners, who as I noted is the closest thing we’ve got to an official etiquette authority—continue to recognize this tradition. Here’s [one](http://en.allexperts.com/q/Social-Etiquette-Good-2570/Addressing-PhD-Dr.htm): > [@](#): > > A Ph.D. is not to be called “Dr.” as a matter of course. > It is not correct. Here’s [another](http://www.mannersmith.com/resources/issue.cfm?id=48): > [@](#): > > Ph.D. holders in academic settings, female Dr. Abigail Jones > Ph.D. holders in academic settings, male Dr. Adam Jones > Ph.D. holder in business settings, female Abigail Jones, Ph.D. > Ph.D. holder in business settings, male Adam Jones, Ph.D. > Ph.D. holder in social settings, female Ms. Abigail Jones > Ph.D. holder in social settings, male Mr. Adam Jones Here’s [Miss Manners herself](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/25/AR2007122501110.html): > [@](#): > > […] in the higher levels of the academic world, it is taken for granted that one has a PhD and considered silly for anyone not in the medical field to use the title of doctor. Now, there are plenty of other modern style guides and etiquette experts who recognize the newer custom of using “Dr.” socially for Ph.D.'s. But that doesn’t mean that it was always considered correct to do so. It wasn’t. > [@JThunder](#): > > And I don’t care what Miss Manners thinks. She’s wrong. > > I see no “traditional prohibition” here. What I see is a custom adopted by some out of misinformation. Sorry, but the tradition exists. You may not like it, you may choose not to follow it, you may cheer on its rapid obsolescence, but you can’t pretend that it isn’t real and hasn’t influenced the way that many people still think about correct forms of address for Ph.D.'s. And why would you want to, anyway? Why would you be happier thinking that people who believe Ph.D.'s shouldn’t be addressed as “Dr.” socially are just plain wrong or ignorant or uneducated, instead of recognizing that their views reflect an earlier tradition, even if it’s a tradition that you don’t like? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/195 "2008-10-16T23:57:14Z")
By the way, the attempts at counterexamples that you gave—Dr. King and Dr. Brothers—aren’t valid. Traditional etiquette approves addressing a clergyman socially as “Dr.”, if he holds a doctorate of divinity or philosophy, which is why Dr. Martin Luther King was so addressed even in private life. This didn’t apply to non-clergy Ph.D.'s. And the use of the title “Dr.” by Joyce Brothers is basically a commercial marketing tool connected to her professional identity as a celebrity psychologist, not as a private individual. Again, I personally have nothing against people using whatever honorific they like in whatever situation they like.\* I’m just trying to point out that etiquette customs about correct forms of address in the past were bit more restricted, and many people still recognize those rules, which is why many people still don’t use “Dr.” socially for Ph.D.'s. - Except that, as I said before, I regret the implied devaluation of eminently respectable universal honorifics such as “Mr.” or “Ms.” I think it’s a bit sad that anyone should feel insulted by being called “Mr.”, for example, which is a perfectly respectful and dignified title for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/196 "2008-10-16T23:58:03Z")
This is just an appeal to authority. Quotes from Miss Manners offerno information other than “This is what Miss Manners prefers.” She offers no basis for her conclusion. In fact, all throughout my childhood, I was surrounded by Ph.D.s and they routinely addressed each other as “Doctor” in social settings. Knowing what I know about how Miss Manners operates, I have no reason to believe that she engaged in any sort of serious survey of actual usage before reaching her conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/197 "2008-10-17T00:05:52Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This is just an appeal to authority. No shit, Dr. Sherlock. All etiquette is based on arbitrary customs of usage that ultimately depend on some kind of appeal to authority. I am making no claim that Miss Manners needs to be obeyed in this matter, nor even that all academics in the past invariably abided by this rule. I am merely pointing out that this rule existed as a recognized convention of etiquette, and is still recognized by many as valid. And it’s not true that Miss Manners just makes shit up as she goes along, either. She doesn’t give footnotes and citations in her columns, true, but if you read older etiquette books (a hobby of mine), you will recognize that she’s very well acquainted with earlier forms of social usage, and when she says that something is traditional she generally knows what she’s talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/198 "2008-10-17T00:22:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No shit, Dr. Sherlock. All etiquette is based on arbitrary customs of usage that ultimately depend on some kind of appeal to authority. Nope. There also exists, as I suggested, an actual survey of social custom in the form of empirical data of _actual fucking usage_. > [@](#): > > I am making no claim that Miss Manners needs to be obeyed in this matter, nor even that all academics in the past invariably abided by this rule. I am merely pointing out that this rule existed as a recognized convention of etiquette, and is still recognized by many as valid. And I am pointing out that this does not offer reasonable data regarding the question of whether it is socially acceptable – as in actually accepted by a certain number of individuals in our actual society. > [@](#): > > And it’s not true that Miss Manners just makes shit up as she goes along, either. She doesn’t give footnotes and citations in her columns, true, but if you read older etiquette books (a hobby of mine), you will recognize that she’s very well acquainted with earlier forms of social usage, and when she says that something is traditional she generally knows what she’s talking about. And so, I ask if you agree that this data tells us only what was considered “proper etiquette” by the kind of people who write and perhaps also read books on etiquette. It does not constitute data regarding _actual social customs_ beyond this rather limited sample. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/199 "2008-10-17T00:31:43Z")
**Kimstu** , I guess my problem is that I don’t really see “choosing a title from a dropdown box on a website” as a question of _social etiquette_. I see it more as a question of self-identity, and I self-identify as a doctor because I hold a doctorate. I don’t demand that anyone call me Dr. quixotic78, but if there’s a choice right there in front of me, I’m going to pick Dr. Authority though she may be on proper usage in dinner parties, Miss Manners seems wholly irrelevant to the (bulk of) the discussion at hand. (Personally, when I introduce myself at parties, it’s “Mike,” etiquette be damned, and I can’t believe I’d call myself “Dr. Lastname” if I had an MD as well!) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423/200 "2008-10-17T01:08:49Z")
I think that **acsenray** addressed your points quite well, **Kimstu**. To further address this issue though… > [@Kimstu](#): > > By the way, the attempts at counterexamples that you gave—Dr. King and Dr. Brothers—aren’t valid. Traditional etiquette approves addressing a clergyman socially as “Dr.”, if he holds a doctorate of divinity or philosophy, which is why Dr. Martin Luther King was so addressed even in private life. This didn’t apply to non-clergy Ph.D.'s. First of all, do you have a cite for this claim? While you might be correct, I’m not going to accept it as face value. And second, even if we grant it to be true, this example alone demonstrates that her claim (“A Ph.D. is not to be called “Dr.” as a matter of course.”) is, at best, overly simplistic. > [@](#): > > And the use of the title “Dr.” by Joyce Brothers is basically a commercial marketing tool connected to her professional identity as a celebrity psychologist, not as a private individual. So you say. Personally, I don’t think it’s so simple. I daresay that if the use of the “Doctor” honorific were truly as inappropriate as Miss Manners claims, then its use would have been a marketing disaster. The fact that Joyce Brothers DID choose to use this title – succesfully, I might add – shows that it was at least acceptable, rather that something which “just isn’t done.” Most importantly… > [@](#): > > I think it’s a bit sad that anyone should feel insulted by being called “Mr.”, for example, which is a perfectly respectful and dignified title for anyone. I’m aware that Miss Manners take that same stance. As far as I’m concerned, this is the biggest clue that she is off base. For example, I daresay that most people would be offended if a pastor or Catholic priest were referred to as “Mister Jones,” even in a non-religious setting. And what if someone were to refer to a certain general as “Mister Colin Powell”? Even in a non-political and non-military situation, that would surely take a lot of people aback. I know that I would certainly deem it to be borderline offensive, at best. Should the title “Mister” be considered perfectly acceptable for everyone, as Miss Manners says? I think that everyday experience shows that this simply isn’t true. That’s why I always choose to address Ph.D.'s as “Doctor” – or to omit the honorific altogether. For the majority, that’s perfectly acceptable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-are-not-a-doctor/467423.md?page=11)