# No, you don't need a semiautomatic rifle **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705 "2021-02-11T17:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/21 "2021-02-11T22:36:18Z")
I’m also going to go on the record that we should bring lawn darts back, and allow pocket knives on planes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/22 "2021-02-11T22:40:45Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > “Important” wasn’t even on my mind, but the remote possibility of someone killing me or anyone else with one of these things is so low that it is unimportant. The remote possibility that you or anyone else would run into a situation that necessitates the use of a semiautomatic rifle is so low that it is unimportant. It is certainly much lower than the possibility of crimes or murders being committed with these weapons. Further, you are discounting the externalities involved. For example, the proliferation of firearms in American society directly leads to the fear and mistrust of the public experienced by police officers, which directly leads to police brutality and killings. It doesn’t matter that a cop is very, very unlikely to actually be killed by a criminal wielding a semiautomatic rifle. The mere perception that this is possible leads to the police officer behaving in this way, which is clearly bad for society. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/23 "2021-02-11T22:44:00Z")
Ok, the most popular hunting semi-auto rifles are usually limited to five shots. And you can fire a bolt or lever action just about as fast. Take a look at the Remington 7600, it is just a rifle. Five shots or three. > **[6 Best Deer Hunting Rifles for The Big Woods](https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/best-deer-rifles-for-big-woods/)** > > Hunting the North Country is different than any other kind of whitetail deer hunting. Here are the six best deer hunting rifles for the big woods. So, there is nothing weird or wrong about a semi-auto rifle for hunting, it is just a choice. It reduces recoil quite a bit, so that for many is a excellent reason. Now, the OP here seems to think all semi-auto rifles are like the AR15, which can use a high capacity magazine and looks kinda military. Those and the AK47 clones are the choice of idiots and right wing militia members, not to mention some mass shooters, true. But there are millions of them out there. Mostly for home defense, but they do make good varmint rifles. Do you NEED one? Maybe, maybe not, but does anyone NEED a car that goes faster than 80MPH? Does anyone NEED a two seater sports car? Hell, if we based it on _need,_ we’d have three cars- a Honda Fit, a mini-van and a PU. Does anyone NEED a gaming computer? As **bump** rightly pointed out, rifles- semi, bolt, level, pump, or single shot- just are not used in a significant number of crimes. **If you waved a magic wand and made every non-military-owned semi-auto rifle in the USA vanish, there would be no significant decline in violent crime.** **Semi-auto rifles are not the problem.** ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/24 "2021-02-11T22:45:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > necessitates You use “need” and “necessitates”. I never did. The poster you quote in the OP doesn’t. No, nobody needs them. They want them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/25 "2021-02-11T22:46:18Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You use “need” and “necessitates”. I never did. The poster you quote in the OP doesn’t. No, nobody needs them. They want them That’s not what the poster I quoted said. Apparently you know nothing about hunting. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/26 "2021-02-11T22:46:50Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’m also going to go on the record that we should bring lawn darts back I like that you brought up lawn darts. Lawn darts are completely useless for anything other than play, and they imperil people. Objectively speaking it’s a cost-benefit consideration - is the fun worth the injuries, taking into account the probability of the injuries occurring and the likely severity thereof? Persons who are enamored of the fun they have playing with their lawn darts are always going to have a hard time convincing persons who aren’t enamored of them that they’re worth killing people over. Heck some people who like them a lot might still question if it’s worth it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/27 "2021-02-11T22:47:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It doesn’t matter that a cop is very, very unlikely to actually be killed by a criminal wielding a semiautomatic rifle. The mere perception that this is possible leads to the police officer behaving in this way, which is clearly bad for society. I have heard of cops saying they thought he was reaching for a hidden handgun, or that a cell phone or similar smallish black object was gun, so they had to open fire. I have never hear they thought that shovel was a AR15. This is a bogus reason. And remember, it is not _necessitates the use_ - every middle class or above person in America has lots of crap they dont NEED… but that they _want._ I collect swords- I hardly ever “need” one. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/28 "2021-02-11T22:49:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s not what the poster I quoted said. Apparently you know nothing about hunting. “If you think there is no use.” Which is not what you originally wrote, so it was a poor response. But still, you’re the one bringing up need. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/29 "2021-02-11T22:49:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have heard of cops saying they thought he was reaching for a hidden handgun, or that a cell phone or similar smallish black object was gun, so they had to open fire. I agree, get rid of handguns too. If you must allow any guns at all, do what the Brits do, and allow only sporting rifles and hunting shotguns. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/30 "2021-02-11T22:52:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Persons who are enamored of the fun they have playing with their lawn darts are always going to have a hard time convincing persons who aren’t enamored of them that they’re worth killing people over. Heck some people who like them a lot might still question if it’s worth it. Exactly. If driving out to the desert and blowing up pumpkins is worth more to you than 14,000 lives, I really don’t know what to say to you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/31 "2021-02-11T22:54:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Do you NEED one? Maybe, maybe not, but does anyone NEED a car that goes faster than 80MPH? Does anyone NEED a two seater sports car? Hell, if we based it on _need,_ we’d have three cars- a Honda Fit, a mini-van and a PU. Does anyone NEED a gaming computer? When gaming computers kill thousands of people a year, get back to me with that analogy. You are right about cars, but unlike guns they also provide an essential service. In a couple decades when self driving cars are ubiquitous, you’d have to be a real asshole to insist on driving one anyways despite the fact that human drivers are far deadlier than guns. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/32 "2021-02-11T23:03:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But that’s not the case; the vast majority of gun deaths are not from rifles of any type; [of the 13927 gun murders in 2019, only 364 were from rifles, with about 6400 from handguns.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/) So even if we limit the total pool to only newly sold guns, we’re still talking about a vanishingly small percentage that are actually used to kill anyone. But we’re really looking at the accumulated total of assault rifles sold over decades, making that percentage microscopic. If we take the 13 million rifles sold over the past decade, and divide 364 by that, we come up with 0.0028% used in a homicide. That’s tiny. I’m guessing lots of other things kill people at a higher rate than that which nobody is concerned with. Woah, woah, woah. Talk about maiming statistics. Dividing the 364 from ONE YEAR by the entire amount sold OVER A DECADE is quite the bogus comparison. Why bother? If we assume that there were (roughly) 364 murders by rifle each year, over 10 years, that’s 3,640. Divide that by 13m rifles, and you get 0.028%. Isn’t that small enough to make your point? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/33 "2021-02-11T23:14:19Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Woah, woah, woah. Talk about maiming statistics. Dividing the 364 from ONE YEAR by the entire amount sold OVER A DECADE is quite the bogus comparison. Why bother? If we assume that there were (roughly) 364 murders by rifle each year, over 10 years, that’s 3,640. Divide that by 13m rifles, and you get 0.028%. Isn’t that small enough to make your point? Plus, many people own multiple guns. I think it makes more sense to compare the number of murders committed with a rifle to the number of rifle owners rather than the number of rifles. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/34 "2021-02-11T23:19:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > but they do make good varmint rifles No they don’t. You don’t spend $500 + on a varmint rifle that has spendy ammo when you can buy a $100-$200 .22 rifle that works basically the same and ammo is really cheap. You only buy a M4/AK knockoffs if you think you look cool showing off. And, please give up the home defense thing they are an awful choice for that. A shotgun is the best home defense weapon by far. Easier to hit someone with and won’t go thru your walls and kill the neighbors dog. Or kid. Or neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/35 "2021-02-11T23:37:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Semi-auto rifles are not the problem. Well, no. Climate change is THE problem. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do something about all those other things that are A problem. I’ll agree that your 5-shot semi-auto isn’t the same thing as an AR-15. And I’ll agree that your 5-shot semi-auto isn’t why a whole generation of kids has been terrorized by ‘active shooter’ drills. But I think it’s long overdue to do something about the guns that motivate those drills, the ones that enable someone to kill a shitload of people in a hurry. I’ll let people more knowledgeable about guns than I am argue over where that line is, but AFAIAC that’s a decent layman’s definition of which guns are the problem. Oh, and open carry should be banned, outside of areas where hunting is legal, during hunting season. If someone was carrying at the school board meeting, I damn sure wouldn’t want to get in an argument with them. Open carry in situations like that basically allows the (unreasonable interpretaton of the) Second Amendment to trump the First Amendment. And elsewhere, it’s just plain intimidating. So you’re carrying a handgun in a holster, or an AR-15 at parade rest or whatever they call it. You’re still just a few seconds from being able to kill someone. That shit just shouldn’t be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/36 "2021-02-11T23:46:09Z")
First of all, hunting is a pretty peripheral subject in discussions of the right to keep and bear arms. A surprising number of [state RKBA provisions](https://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm) do mention hunting–but it’s still a minority of those provisions, and in every case, it’s part of a longer list, _after_ “self-defense” or “defense of self, family, home and State”. As best I can tell, the earliest mention of “hunting” in a RKBA provision dates back to the 1970s—the earliest state RKBA provisions, from the _17_70s, use language like “the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state”. At best, discussions of “hunting” in a discussion of the right to keep and bear arms are on about the same level as a discussion of whether or not you ought to be able to play “naughty” words in a game of Scrabble in a discussion of free speech—I guess that _could_ rise to the level of a free speech question, if playing a forbidden word in a Scrabble game actually got you arrested and imprisoned or fined or something; but it really doesn’t have much to do with the core of the right to free speech. Second, semi-automatic rifles are very rarely used to commit crimes. From [FBI data](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls) rifles (of all types, so presumably including at least _some_ bolt-action or other non-semi-auto weapons) were used to commit fewer than 3% of murders. I imagine rifles are probably also not used very often in self-defense, either. (That doesn’t mean rifles aren’t _ever_ used in self-defense.) In either direction, though, it might seem that “assault weapons” or even “all semi-automatic rifles” are a marginal issue in the broader discussion of the right to keep and bear arms. (I’m also not going to get into “the defense of the state”–the insurrectionary or collective-rights interpretation of the right to keep and bear arms.) So why would people who support the right to keep and bear arms _as a principle_ object to banning semi-automatic rifles? Well, on the one hand, it would do almost nothing to actually reduce violent crime perpetrated with firearms. (Again, fewer than 3% of murders are committed using rifles, of all types—and there would surely be substitution effects for at least some of those murders; if semi-automatic rifles were magically removed from American society, other rifles, or shotguns, or handguns, would be used at least some of the time by the perpetrators who otherwise used semi-automatic rifles). But on the other hand—and this is the most important thing—these indignant demands of “What do you _need_ a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_?” for—“an assault weapon”, a “semi-automatic rifle” (regardless of whether it previously qualified as an “assault weapon”), “a handgun”, “a pump-action shotgun”, etc.—are all very much predicated on the idea that no one really _needs_ ANY type of weapon; that people in a “civilized” society _might_ be permitted to own dangerous items (like guns) for use in agricultural pest control, or hunting or other recreational use, provided that those items are strictly controlled so that they cannot be “misused” (where “misuse” [explicitly includes “used for self-defense”](https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-1996-046#sec.12))—but people in a “civilized” society must be “disarmed”. Moves to restrict or outlaw “assault weapons”—now, “semi-automatic rifles”, regardless of whether they meet earlier definitions of “assault weapons”—are and always have been part of a strategy for the general disarmament of the American people—that is, of completely eliminating the right to keep and bear arms. For decades now, the movement to eliminate the right to keep and bear arms in the United States has actually been [pretty up-front in acknowledging this](https://www.vpc.org/studies/awaconc.htm). > **** > > From that Violence Policy Center link: > > > [@](#): > > > > Although handguns claim more than 20,000 lives a year\*, the issue of handgun restriction consistently remains a non-issue with the vast majority of legislators, the press, and public. The reasons for this vary: the power of the gun lobby; the tendency of both sides of the issue to resort to sloganeering and pre-packaged arguments when discussing the issue; the fact that until an individual is affected by handgun violence he or she is unlikely to work for handgun restrictions; the view that handgun violence is an “unsolvable” problem; the inability of the handgun restriction movement to organize itself into an effective electoral threat; and the fact that until someone famous is shot, or something truly horrible happens, handgun restriction is simply not viewed as a priority. Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a _new_ topic. The weapons’ menacing looks, coupled with the public’s confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons. > > \*This particular paper [dates back to 1988](https://www.vpc.org/studies/awacont.htm). Crime rates in general—and rates of murders perpetrated using firearms, of all types—have fallen sharply since then. Not that this has done anything much to change very many minds in the debate on eliminating the right to keep and bear arms. > > * * * People who support the right to keep and bear arms, as a principle, are naturally not going to support propositions aimed at completely eliminating that right, even if those propositions wouldn’t completely eliminate that right _right now_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/37 "2021-02-11T23:55:26Z")
Cars do, but muscle cars and sports cars dont. Nor do jeeps or motorcycles or any car that goes faster than 35mph. You dont need any outdoor recreation, either, boating accidents kill more people every year than rifles do. > [@Babale](#): > > When gaming computers kill thousands of people a year, get back to me with that analogy. Ah ah, we have shown rifles only kill 300-400 people a year, and that is ALL rifles- lever, bolt, pump, etc. Not “thousands”. Smoking kills 500000 americans a year. Alcohol almost 100000. We have to ban smoking and booze. And boating, and driving, except in 35 mph econoboxes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/38 "2021-02-11T23:57:35Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > No they don’t. You don’t spend $500 + on a varmint rifle that has spendy ammo when you can buy a $100-$200 .22 rifle that works basically the same and ammo is really cheap. You dont take coyotes with a rimfire. And that would also disallow any long range varmint hunting. Sure, they arent the best choice for that. A Ram 500 or a Camaro isnt the best choice for a commuting vehicle either. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/39 "2021-02-12T00:05:45Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think what’s behind it is the old trope that if you don’t understand all the arcane technical details that are second nature to gun fetishists, any opinion that you hold on private gun ownership in a civilized society is invalid. It would help if those who promote stricter gun laws would master the simplest of “arcane technical details”, such as the definition of a semi-automatic weapon, which babale thinks means a gun “capable of firing dozens of rounds in rapid succession” and which many equate to “assault weapons”. “The vast majority of modern guns sold and collected in the US are _semi-automatic_, which means they fire a single shot with every pull of the trigger, but automatically reload between shots. That’s in contrast to _full-automatic_ weapons, as well as _single-shot guns_ that require the operator to “cock” the gun or hand-feed ammunition between shots.” > **[A Non-Gun-Owner’s Guide to Guns](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/semi-automatic-gun-assault-weapon-definitions/)** > > Semi-auto, full auto, bolt-action, lever-action…What we talk about when we talk about firearms. Once again, the overwhelming majority of guns in the U.S., whether used for self-protection, target shooting, hunting or criminal enterprise _are semi-automatic by definition_. If one wants to ban semi-automatic weapons it would mean eliminating all but a relatively few guns, which of course might be one’s goal. Disclosure: I am not and have never been a hunter, though I appreciate whatever they can do to put a dent in the exploding deer population. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705/40 "2021-02-12T00:38:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Does anyone NEED a gaming computer? That got me thinking (I know, I know). Assuming 5 deaths/TWh for typical US grid mix, and 100 to 350 kWh/year for a typical desktop, that works out to about one death each year for every 600k - 2M PCs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-you-dont-need-a-semiautomatic-rifle/932705.md?page=3)