# No, you're not the biggest victim here. Not by a long shot. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793 "2005-07-02T03:16:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/61 "2005-07-04T19:02:58Z")
**picunurse** , I am amazed that you had the strength to share such a personal story…you have given me much to think about. I wish you peace. In the movie _White_, two men stand in a train station. (I don’t remember their names.) B is going to shoot A because A wants to die but cannot bring himself to complete the act. As he points the trigger at A, B asks him, “Why do you want to die?” A simply says, “Because I want the pain to stop.” I saw _White_ along time ago, but that scene is one of the most accurate representations of the emotions of suicide I’ve seen or read. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/62 "2005-07-04T20:34:10Z")
> [@boofuu](#): > > Okay, let’s step back. I did not write in malice and I was not expecting a response in malice. Not intending to be malicious/hostile, Internet tone, permanent sarcasm overload, etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/63 "2005-07-04T21:52:10Z")
To those of you who read my story, and were effected by it, I’d like to say thank you. It is personal, but it isn’t a secret. Secrets are like infections, if allowed to stay hidden, they only get worse. Suicide and the demons that cause it, are not evil, unto themselves, any more than any other illness. Someone once asked me if I felt guilty for intellectualizing our discussions, without making him get help. People have also asked why I don’t hate P. My answer to both is that I feel very strongly, as did Michael, that we are all responsible for our own actions. P. Did not make Michael kill himself. She made the choice that affected her life, she didn’t make his. One thing I’d like to point out to all of you here who are struggling with your own demons. So far, you’ve won. I think, in some ways suicidal ideas are addictive, and even though I don’t subscribe to all of the tenents of AA, I think taking it one day at a time is as good a therapy as some of us ever get. Each day you chose to not cross that one way threshold, its a day you’ve won. Tomorrow may be easier, or harder, but today is the only one you have to deal with. By talking openly here, without shame or guilt is a small way to begin educating others. The anger and denial you face with your loved ones is fear. Shine a light on what’s been that dark, heavy secret, and it may become lighter. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/64 "2005-07-04T21:57:41Z")
Precisely. I nearly died because I didn’t know I could get help and I didn’t know other people went through this. While I wish I’d done things differently, I am not ashamed of who I am or what I’ve done and, if the hell I’ve gone through can help one person, then I figure maybe the past dozen or so years have been worth something. After all, we are supposed to be fighting ignorance here, right? 😉 CJ ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/65 "2005-07-04T22:54:04Z")
It’s been one of the oddities of my life that I’ve known so many suicides, and loved some of them. My hurt over their deaths is the pain of helplessness. I couldn’t help them. They died. I hate the diseases that took them from the world. I hate that they each decided, rationally or irrationally, that living was just too much. I’ve posted this before, so I’ll just quote myself: > [@](#): > > One of the suicides I knew was simply uncorrectable. To give context, his entire family is unstable. His parents have both been in and out of mental institutions, his sister was psychotic, his brother was a paranoid schizophrenic who was wanted by the police for a violent crime but who had spent 10 years hiding out somewhere, and then there was Harry (not his real name) who had been medicated up to his eyes for twenty years without a moment’s happiness. > > Yes, he killed himself. Yes, I’m sure it was upsetting for his parents and his wife. I know it was. It had to be. But what else was Harry supposed to do in order to appease everyone else? He left a note saying he was afraid he’d do something violent, that he’d turn into his brother, that he could feel his control slipping. He was already half zombified by all the meds. He had already been “helped.” The tragedy isn’t the suicide. The tragedy is that a very nice man had an incurable disease. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/66 "2005-07-04T23:52:35Z")
I agree with the OP in principle but I feel its point is somewhat diminshed by hyperbole. Suicides are hard on everyone. It seems like sometimes people deal with their grief by lashing out at the dead (who of course will not really be aware), proclaiming to everyone that it was stupid, selfish, cowardly, or whatever. I do not deny the survivors their entitlement to be devastated, angry, or the rest of the emotional spectrum. But I do feel it is wrong to comfort onself by unleashing their anger on the person who died. What does your rage and vilification do to the other survivors who have chosen to remember the person in as positive a way as possible? How is it helpful to transform the memory someone you loved into an enemy who, if we’re to believe the rest of the rhetoric on this thread, “killed” you? I do agree with others, though, that it is pretty bad to leave a grisly scene and no explanation whatsoever. When these kinds of thoughts come to my mind as they do from time to time, my first thought is how to ensure that the body would be discovered by someone whose job is to discover these sorts of things, with no damage that would be visible to casual inspection. Other than being dead, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/67 "2005-07-05T00:09:20Z")
> [@pool](#): > > You know not everyone who kills themselves have a mental illness some people do it for other reasons whether they be financial, out of shame, disfigurement or permanent injury, under the influence of drugs, or they just feel like “what’s the point?” I agree. My cousin (aged 20) lost 5 friends to suicide in a year. Did John kill himself due to mental illness, or did he kill himself because he was still in the clutches of grief and guilt over the death of Jill two weeks earlier, who killed herself within hours of their breakup. Did Jill really kill herself just for that reason, or was it more likely that the breakup was the one more thing that she couldn’t deal with following the suicide of her best friend earlier in the year? I don’t believe my cousin’s friends are killing themselves due to mental illness, though possibly that might have been what caused the first one to take his life. I think that they are just so wracked with grief and survivor guilt that they can’t cope with the normal little obstacles that life throws everyone’s way and that causes them to opt to side with the dead. Each new death just adds to the burden on the survivors. Anyway, I couldn’t disagree more with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/68 "2005-07-05T00:14:53Z")
Not all mental illness involves pain. Not all suicide involves pain, even - sometimes it is boredom, or revenge or odd (mentally ill) logic, or complete numbness, or… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/69 "2005-07-05T06:05:02Z")
> [@Brain Wreck](#): > > I do not deny the survivors their entitlement to be devastated, angry, or the rest of the emotional spectrum. But I do feel it is wrong to comfort onself by unleashing their anger on the person who died. What does your rage and vilification do to the other survivors who have chosen to remember the person in as positive a way as possible? Anger is a pretty common part of the grieving process and sometimes that anger is aimed at the deceased. After my father died unexpectedly my sister confided in me that she was very angry at him for not getting medical checkups. I admit that it hurt a little when I heard that but I recognized it as a valid emotional response. Of course anger doesn’t give an individual license to say things that will hurt other grievers. Marc ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/70 "2005-07-05T06:11:46Z")
**continuity eror** - I have my issues with the way you phrased yourself, but I totally understand where you’re coming from. There have been points when the “suicide is selfish” mentality got so thick around here that I just wanted to scream. (Example - right after Hunter S. Thompson died, there were several disparaging remarks made about how suicide was “the coward’s way out.” Links furnished upon request; right now, I’m ranting.) To me, it just shows a profound ignorance of the way that mental illness works. I have never really been truly suicidal, but I do have problems with mental illness (depression and general anxiety), and I know what it’s like to be betrayed by your own mind. I was, for a long time, totally incapable of responding in a rational manner to anything. Part of me knew, sometimes, that I was being irrational. But it didn’t matter. I really believed that I was worthless, that everyone hated me, that people were only nice to me because they felt sorry for me. I had enough of myself left that I never really wanted to die. At the same time, I wouldn’t have thought that anyone would mourn me. I wouldn’t have thought that I was hurting anyone. I would have thought that I was doing the world a favor. I had failed at everything. I would never become the person I should have been. I honestly could not see what good my continued existence was doing. And I was far from being at rock bottom. There are people out there going through shit that I cannot even imagine. So I will never condemn anyone for killing themselves, because I know what it was like for me. I can’t imagine what it is for them. As for the idea that there’s no real reason for people to suffer - it’s a comforting thought, but I don’t think it’s true. Mental illness is a massively stigmatized thing (and incidentally, all you “Coward’s way out” people? You’re not helping). As long as so many people continue to claim that “It’s all in your mind,” that you could get better if you didn’t enjoy the pain, that drugs and psychiatrists are unnecessary so long as we have self-help books and Scientology, those with real illnesses will be afraid to seek treatment. It’s hard to admit that you’re “crazy.” It’s hard to admit that you can’t control your own mind anymore, that you’re in a situation you can’t get out of on your own. It is hard to seek help, even in the best of situations, with the best of support networks. I would never for a second have condemned any of my friends who were (and still are) seeking treatment for their own mental problems. But I could not admit that I myself needed help. It only made me feel more of a failure. Were I to have killed myself, those who love me would have suffered horribly. I know that now. At the time, though, I couldn’t see how anyone would love me in the first place. How could I make a rational decision under those circumstances? It’s easy to see what should and should not be done from a distance. It is very, very hard to see what should and should not be done in the situation. Blame helps nobody. It only reinforces those same ideas. Mental illness is not weakness, or frailty, or some sort of guilty thing. It’s an illness. Until we’re willing to treat it as such, don’t be shocked when people succumb to it without ever having sought a cure. ---
**Author:** ![boofuu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@boofuu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofuu)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/71 "2005-07-05T06:29:26Z")
> [@cazzle](#): > > I agree. My cousin (aged 20) lost 5 friends to suicide in a year. Did John kill himself due to mental illness, or did he kill himself because he was still in the clutches of grief and guilt over the death of Jill two weeks earlier, who killed herself within hours of their breakup. Did Jill really kill herself just for that reason, or was it more likely that the breakup was the one more thing that she couldn’t deal with following the suicide of her best friend earlier in the year? > > my emphasis This is something I have noticed with many people in this age group. I noticed that many of the people that have committed suicide as shared by the posters here seem relatively young, the two older examples sticking out in my mind as being unusual. My mom remarked that I have an incredibly large group of friends that struggle with mental illness or who are unable to properly deal with what are often everyday trivialities, and especially the number that choose suicide as the action plan (myself included). She is aware that mental illness is much less reviled than in her time (much less meaning that it is more acceptable. as she describes it, to talk about that “crazy aunt” everyone has in the family). But she is extremely close to her family and she cannot recall people who committed suicide and our family is the type that a cousin could not just “disappear” without notice. But the most recent generation is often inclined to see suicide as an option. Would you think it is current society that makes it more “acceptable” to commit suicide? If so, will there be a point where is it is just something commonplace? I hope this is not extremely tangential to the topic, really. I feel that there is some sort of connection between my mother’s observation and the reaction to the OP (discounting the response to the tone and not the content of the post). Are those posters “older,” I am thinking more like babyboomers? I am 27, for what it is worth. If this is not an appropriate comment in this thread, I apologize and please disregard. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/72 "2005-07-05T06:56:47Z")
> [@boofuu](#): > > But she is extremely close to her family and she cannot recall people who committed suicide and our family is the type that a cousin could not just “disappear” without notice. But the most recent generation is often inclined to see suicide as an option. > > Would you think it is current society that makes it more “acceptable” to commit suicide? If so, will there be a point where is it is just something commonplace? The famed sociologist Emile Durkheim proposed this theory in 1897, describing a category of 4 kinds of suicide he described as being due to “anomie”, or the loss of social norms: > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]_Acute economic anomie:_ sporadic decreases in the ability of traditional institutions (such as religion, guilds, pre-industrial social systems, etc.) to regulate and fulfill social needs. [/li][li]_Chronic economic anomie:_ long term dimunition of social regulation. Durkheim identified this type with the ongoing industrial revolution, which eroded traditional social regulators and often failed to replace them. Industrial goals of wealth and property were insufficient in providing happiness, as was demonstrated by higher suicide rates among the wealthy than among the poor. [/li][li]_Acute domestic anomie:_ sudden changes on the microsocial level resulted in an inability to adapt and therefore higher suicide rates. Widowhood is a prime example of this type of anomie. [/li][li]_Chronic domestic anomie:_ referred to the way marriage as an institution regulated the sexual and behavioral means-needs balance among men and women. Marriage provided different regulations for each, however. Bachelors tended to commit suicide at higher rates than married men because of a lack of regulation and established goals and expectations. On the other hand, marriage has traditionally served to overregulate the lives of women by further restricting their already limited opportunities and goals. Unmarried women, therefore, do not experience chronic domestic anomie nearly as often as do unmarried men.[/li][/ul] So you’re on the right track, although this is hardly a new idea. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/73 "2005-07-05T21:24:35Z")
If my story would help anyone’s family or friends to understand the need to shed light on this topic, please, feel free to copy it. I checked with a Mod, and its ok for me to offer. M. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/74 "2005-07-06T13:23:44Z")
I posted to this thread and then found I needed some time before I could look at it again. I apologise for posting and running away (though sometimes that happens because of the time differences and life etc…this thread I admit I actively ran away from). **calm kiwi** , try to think of them as being temporarily brain-damaged and not in their right minds. Under those circumstances, they are not really in a position to choose, are they? I don’t know about that. I know my husband had a very crap upbringing that bought baggage to our relationship but he was usually a very strong “together” person. Two back surgeries and the resulting time off work probably didn’t help things but he had no discernable depression. I think perhaps he expected to be rescued. The fact that I didn’t rescue him will never leave me. He was a non drinker who died next to a nearly empty bottle of vodka. That was his temporary brain damage as much as anything else. It’s just a shit load of guilt to carry around. I don’t know why people have such a hard time understanding that mental illness affections _ **the functioning of the brain** _. Peace be with you all. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/75 "2005-07-06T13:25:21Z")
Majorly fucked up coding. OOPS. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/76 "2005-07-07T00:03:03Z")
Sorry, I agree with the OP. Saying “I’m the true victim of his suicide because I have so many unanswered questions and I just can’t live my life without him” is the truest form of self-centeredness. Adam ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/77 "2005-07-07T01:32:59Z")
> [@Agent Foxtrot](#): > > Sorry, I agree with the OP. Saying “I’m the true victim of his suicide because I have so many unanswered questions and I just can’t live my life without him” is the truest form of self-centeredness. Mental illness is a horrible thing to endure. So is losing a loved one. I mean, an incredibly fucking horrible thing to endure. How about having sympathy for people on both sides instead of ripping on people who are grieving for not adequately acknowledging everyone else’s pain? ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/78 "2005-07-07T01:46:44Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Mental illness is a horrible thing to endure. So is losing a loved one. I mean, an incredibly fucking horrible thing to endure. How about having sympathy for people on both sides instead of ripping on people who are grieving for not adequately acknowledging everyone else’s pain? Nobody’s saying families shouldn’t get sympathy. We’re just saying they should get less. And considering that in many cases it’s the family that neglects the signs of a suicide (“don’t be a dick, dear”) and in some cases actively prevents someone from seeking psychiatric help, isn’t it just right that they should get less? I mean, if a person let their kid die of the flu because they left them outside all night and then didn’t give them any treatment, would we have sympathy for the parent? Would they be the “real” victim? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793/79 "2005-07-07T02:49:28Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > Nobody’s saying families shouldn’t get sympathy. We’re just saying they should get less. Maybe no one’s saying they shouldn’t get sympathy, but certain comments (such as **Agent Foxtrot’s** accusation of self-centeredness, which I quoted), seem to indicate a lack of sympathy. My point was cut these people a break – I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone who’s going through the loss of a loved one thinking primarily of their own suffering. However, the reason I quoted **Agent Foxtrot** and not you is because his comments seemed to me to be directed more at the family members of suicide victims (who I think generally deserve some slack, since they’re grieving). Whereas you seemed to be talking more about third parties who are saying that the people who die aren’t the real victims of suicide. I agree with you that it’s wrong to minimize the suffering of suicidal people. However, in response to your reply, I don’t really think it’s necessary to decide who gets more or less sympathy. I’d rather just try to be sympathetic to everyone, instead of stacking them up next to each other and saying “his pain is bigger than yours.” I can be sympathetic for suicide victims without putting a limit on the sympathy I feel for their families. > [@continuity eror](#): > > And considering that in many cases it’s the family that neglects the signs of a suicide (“don’t be a dick, dear”) and in some cases actively prevents someone from seeking psychiatric help, isn’t it just right that they should get less? I mean, if a person let their kid die of the flu because they left them outside all night and then didn’t give them any treatment, would we have sympathy for the parent? Would they be the “real” victim? I certainly wouldn’t say they’re the “real” victim. But I think I’d still feel sorry for them, even if they brought their suffering on themselves through their ignorance or closed mindedness. I don’t think anyone _deserves_ to have their loved ones die, even if they’re arguably responsible for it. Not that you’re saying they deserve to have their loved ones die . . . I just mean, I can separately be upset that someone didn’t do everything in their power to prevent a suicide, and sorry that they’re now having to deal with the consequences. One doesn’t really have to lessen the other, IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-youre-not-the-biggest-victim-here-not-by-a-long-shot/310793.md?page=3)