# Noah's flood and the leaf **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444 "2015-09-25T00:08:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mel789](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mel789](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mel789)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/1 "2015-09-25T00:08:11Z")
If everything died on earth during Noah’s flood then where did the leaf come from that the bird brought back to the ark? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/2 "2015-09-25T00:12:25Z")
It came from land. That was the point, it showed Noah That the waters were receding. The Flood didn’t cause every plant and leaf to dissolve… ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/3 "2015-09-25T00:12:51Z")
Given your hypothetical (“everything died in the flood”), it must have been floating on the surface of the water and the bird scooped it up. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/4 "2015-09-25T00:18:43Z")
> [@Mel789](#): > > If everything died on earth during Noah’s flood then where did the leaf come from that the bird brought back to the ark? Nevermind, this is in General Questions. I don’t want to be struck down by The Hand of Mod. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/5 "2015-09-25T00:39:13Z")
I question the premise that everything died. As someone pointed out somewhere online, the Ark landed on a mountain, which must have been one of the last spots to be submerged and first to dry off. So plants on it may not have been underwater for all that long. As the same site pointed out, plants in New Orleans survived a week or two under sea water. I’d be willing to bet that this holds for many flooded areas. IANABotanist, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to assume that some (or even a lot of) plants might have been OK. Nature is pretty resilient. (BTW, googling this introduced me to more wacky creationist sites in two seconds than I’ve seen in my entire lifetime until now. So that was… um, interesting. The internet sure is one strange place.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/6 "2015-09-25T00:42:58Z")
Since as far as I know the Bible is silent on this, the answer must depend on speculation. Let’s move this to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/7 "2015-09-25T00:52:03Z")
> [@Mel789](#): > > If everything died on earth during Noah’s flood then where did the leaf come from that the bird brought back to the ark? Here’s the passage in question: > [@](#): > > 6 After forty days Noah opened a window he had made in the ark 7 and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. 8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could find nowhere to perch because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. 10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. 12 He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him. The premise of verse 11 is that the bird must have plucked the leaf from a living tree. Since the biblical account is a myth, it doesn’t need to make scientific sense. My guess is that the idea was that the tree had survived being submerged and sent out leaves again when it was exposed by the receding waters. The fact that olive trees couldn’t survive a lengthy immersion in salt water is irrelevant (except for biblical literalists). Of course, since Noah only took land animals into the ark, it’s obvious that not everything died in the flood. Plants survived, either because they were able to survive as mature plants under water, or as seeds. Likewise aquatic animals were not taken into the ark and survived without Noah’s help (ignoring the fact that freshwater fish couldn’t survive in salt water or vice versa). ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/8 "2015-09-25T00:53:11Z")
Now that we’re in Great Debates, the dove (symbol of the holy spirit) found the promise of new life following the flood and brought it back to Noah, as a more physical representation of the rainbow as God’s promise to not drown everybody again. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/9 "2015-09-25T01:10:59Z")
> [@Mel789](#): > > If everything died on earth during Noah’s flood then where did the leaf come from that the bird brought back to the ark? Well, everything on earth WOULD have died, had the biblical account actually happened, but since it’s just a myth it doesn’t need to be scientific to be a good story. Also, I don’t believe in the Bible that it’s ever stated that everything died (obviously not the stuff on the Ark, for instance). You have to understand that the folks who wrote the Bible account (well…the folks who wrote the original story and the folks who wrote the Bible account borrowed it from, I suppose :p) had a rather tenuous understanding of what the world was, how many animals and plants lived in the world, what the actual ramifications of a world wide flood would be, and how plants and animals would or could survive in such an event, etc etc. Today we can see how impossible all of this would be, but they didn’t have a clue, except observations about local floods they had seen or were told to them. To them, it was perfectly fine that there could be enough rain to flood the world as rapidly as happened in their account, that some birds and plants would survive (and all the fish and such would be perfectly fine during all of this, since Noah didn’t have any on the Ark), and that said bird could find said branch and bring it back as a sign that thar be land again! ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/10 "2015-09-25T01:23:02Z")
Perhaps interestingly (although probably not), the Epic of Gilgamesh (spoilers ahead for a very old Sumerian epic poem), which has a proto-version of the flood story in it, also features an underwater plant that confers eternal life. So, underwater plants (or, well, plant) surviving fine while submerged attested in at least that particular universe. FWIW. Which is probably not much. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/11 "2015-09-25T01:55:33Z")
> [@Mel789](#): > > If everything died on earth during Noah’s flood then where did the leaf come from that the bird brought back to the ark? One explanation I’ve read is that in those days plants were not thought of as living things the way animals are living things, they were thought of as something that just naturally grows out of the earth in the right conditions. Of course, I should think that in any culture that has or knows of agriculture, everyone knows that plants don’t grow without seeds. But, seeds do not appear to be living things. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/12 "2015-09-25T02:07:28Z")
This argument conclusively proves there is no God. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/13 "2015-09-25T02:12:28Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Now that we’re in Great Debates, the dove (symbol of the holy spirit) found the promise of new life following the flood and brought it back to Noah, as a more physical representation of the rainbow as God’s promise to not drown everybody again. And the leaf could represent Holy Joy, depending on what kind of leaf it was. **puff** puff\*cough\*\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/14 "2015-09-25T02:20:25Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Perhaps interestingly (although probably not), the Epic of Gilgamesh (spoilers ahead for a very old Sumerian epic poem), which has a proto-version of the flood story in it, also features an underwater plant that confers eternal life. As any sensible person knows, the entire world did not suffer a Great Flood, and the Noah Ark’s tale is just a myth. But not an entirely baseless myth. We read _The Epic of Gilgamesh_ in college, and the flood tale there is an obvious inspiration for the biblical myth. There must have been a big regional flood disaster that would have seemed to local residents like the whole world was flooded. I’m not up on the research, but I recall decades ago reading the flood myth could have been inspired by the break that allowed the Atlantic Ocean in to form the Mediterranean Sea. Dunno if that’s been discounted. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/15 "2015-09-25T02:21:08Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > This argument conclusively proves there is no God. FInally. Next issue… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/16 "2015-09-25T03:01:58Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As any sensible person knows, the entire world did not suffer a Great Flood, and the Noah Ark’s tale is just a myth. But not an entirely baseless myth. We read _The Epic of Gilgamesh_ in college, and the flood tale there is an obvious inspiration for the biblical myth. There must have been a big regional flood disaster that would have seemed to local residents like the whole world was flooded. > > I’m not up on the research, but I recall decades ago reading the flood myth could have been inspired by the break that allowed the Atlantic Ocean in to form the Mediterranean Sea. Dunno if that’s been discounted. You are probably thinking of the Black Sea. It’s a theory (or, perhaps a hypothesis at this point), and could be true. The Med though was formed long before hairless hominids invaded the area (like 5 million years or so before :p) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/17 "2015-09-25T03:09:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You are probably thinking of the Black Sea. It’s a theory (or, perhaps a hypothesis at this point), and could be true. The Med though was formed long before hairless hominids invaded the area (like 5 million years or so before :p) I’m sure it was the Mediterranean I read about, because I have a distinct memory of thinking of all that water flowing in between Spain and Africa. But I could have been reading a misreporting. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/18 "2015-09-25T03:30:50Z")
Both events happened. The[Zanclean flood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood) filled the Mediterranean via the Straits of Gibraltar. > [@](#): > > The Zanclean flood (also known as “Zanclean Deluge”) is a flood theorized to have refilled the Mediterranean Sea 5.33 million years ago.[1] This flooding ended the Messinian salinity crisis and marks the beginning of the Zanclean age. The Black Sea Deluge was more recent. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_Sea\_deluge\_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis) > [@](#): > > The Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea circa 5600 BC due to waters from the Mediterranean Sea breaching a sill in the Bosporus strait. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/19 "2015-09-25T03:43:04Z")
Thanks. I’m sure it was the Mediterranean Sea’s formation that I read about as the basis for the biblical flood, but obviously that could not have been. I think the writer just got his seas mixed up. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/20 "2015-09-25T03:58:12Z")
I’ve also heard speculation about a natural dam giving way at the Straits of Aden, and the valley of the Red Sea flooding catastrophically. I’ve no idea if there is any serious evidence in favor of this notion. (Okay, it came from a science fiction novel by Orson Scott Card, so that’s three strikes against right there.) [ETA: Wikipedia suggests it isn’t totally bogus.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444.md?page=2)