# Noah's flood and the leaf **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444 "2015-09-25T00:08:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/21 "2015-09-25T04:02:24Z")
Or maybe there was a group of about 30 divided into 5 or 6 squabbling settlements beside a tiny lake about 5 miles wide, and when disaster struck, like a volcano plus the waters rising one chap threw his family and livestock onto a raft and paddled about in the darkness until it subsided, and after hitting shore found the other 24 people dead = extinction of all humanity. I think I shall offer this to Ken Ham as a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/22 "2015-09-25T04:13:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > H > > Since the biblical account is a myth, it doesn’t need to make scientific sense. My guess is that the idea was that the tree had survived being submerged and sent out leaves again when it was exposed by the receding waters. The fact that olive trees couldn’t survive a lengthy immersion in salt water is irrelevant (except for biblical literalists). > > Of course, since Noah only took land animals into the ark, it’s obvious that not everything died in the flood. Plants survived, either because they were able to survive as mature plants under water, or as seeds. Likewise aquatic animals were not taken into the ark and survived without Noah’s help (ignoring the fact that freshwater fish couldn’t survive in salt water or vice versa). I never took it as the olive tree had survived, but rather as soon as the flood waters subsided from various places seeds magically sprouted, and grew real, real fast. Which is absurd, but no more absurd than the rest of it. And we certainly don’t get the impression that the earth was a barren wasteland for years and years while the soil got desalted and trees grew. After the flood would make an interesting disaster movie but a short one, as either Noah and folks ate all the animals and died of starvation or the animals ate them. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/23 "2015-09-25T04:39:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > After the flood would make an interesting disaster movie but a short one, as either Noah and folks ate all the animals and died of starvation or the animals ate them. As Sheldon on _The Big Bang Theory_ asked: What would they have fed the lions? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/24 "2015-09-25T04:52:25Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As Sheldon on _The Big Bang Theory_ asked: What would they have fed the lions? Well, if the fish are still around, having an ocean to swim around in: Tuna? (Plugging plot holes in ancient myths, since 1973. Yes, siree, this story Ark - heh - ain’t sinking yet…) ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/25 "2015-09-25T06:28:31Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As Sheldon on _The Big Bang Theory_ asked: What would they have fed the lions? Oh my. You remember the question but you don’t remember his mom’s reply? It was classic! “The corpses of drowned sinners.” ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/26 "2015-09-25T08:56:10Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As any sensible person knows, the entire world did not suffer a Great Flood, and the Noah Ark’s tale is just a myth. But not an entirely baseless myth. We read _The Epic of Gilgamesh_ in college, and the flood tale there is an obvious inspiration for the biblical myth. There must have been a big regional flood disaster that would have seemed to local residents like the whole world was flooded. > > I’m not up on the research, but I recall decades ago reading the flood myth could have been inspired by the break that allowed the Atlantic Ocean in to form the Mediterranean Sea. Dunno if that’s been discounted. “There must have been a big …”? No, there mustn’t. It’s just as likely people living with regular and sometimes catastrophic flooding could come up with a world spanning flood without believing they had experienced one. In fact there is evidence supporting that hypothesis in the existence of parallel or older myths in the region where the flood is “merely” a very large river flood ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/27 "2015-09-25T12:03:01Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As Sheldon on _The Big Bang Theory_ asked: What would they have fed the lions? According to many, prior to the flood- everything (and everyone) was vegetarian. It wasn’t until after the flood that we started eatiing meat. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/28 "2015-09-25T12:05:35Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As Sheldon on _The Big Bang Theory_ asked: What would they have fed the lions? [Poor Unicorns](https://www.google.com/search?q=far+side+unicorn+ark&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIht_EspKSyAIVw4-ACh2GTwaa&biw=1600&bih=789#imgrc=vbAXsUzwEbH2QM%3A) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/29 "2015-09-25T14:41:19Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As any sensible person knows, the entire world did not suffer a Great Flood, and the Noah Ark’s tale is just a myth. But not an entirely baseless myth. We read _The Epic of Gilgamesh_ in college, and the flood tale there is an obvious inspiration for the biblical myth. There must have been a big regional flood disaster that would have seemed to local residents like the whole world was flooded. > > I’m not up on the research, but I recall decades ago reading the flood myth could have been inspired by the break that allowed the Atlantic Ocean in to form the Mediterranean Sea. Dunno if that’s been discounted. Could even be a very, very distant folk-memory of the end of the last Ice Age, the melting of the glaciers, the rise in the sea level, the inundation of the land-bridges, e.g., the one between Britain and France. Probably not, more likely a memory of one or several of the many periodic local floods in Mesopotamia, but it’s interesting to speculate. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/30 "2015-09-25T14:45:45Z")
> [@simster](#): > > According to many, prior to the flood- everything (and everyone) was vegetarian. It wasn’t until after the flood that we started eatiing meat. I see. I shall give that notion all the consideration it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/31 "2015-09-25T15:38:54Z")
> [@simster](#): > > According to many, prior to the flood- everything (and everyone) was vegetarian. It wasn’t until after the flood that we started eatiing meat. Rather tough on the anteaters and mosquitoes. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/32 "2015-09-25T16:02:32Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Rather tough on the anteaters and mosquitoes. And blue whales. Or did it only apply to land animals? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/33 "2015-09-25T16:12:06Z")
Never mind that, what about the penguins? And the polar bears? It’s a long trek from the polar regions, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/34 "2015-09-25T16:12:42Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Oh my. You remember the question but you don’t remember his mom’s reply? It was classic! > > “The corpses of drowned sinners.” I **love** the smell of bloated bodies in the morning! ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/35 "2015-09-25T16:15:12Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Or did it only apply to land animals? I think you’d have to go some way down the food chain in the ocean to find something that could plausibly have enough to eat on a vegetarian diet. Anyway, even for the land animals, how much vegetarian food could you stash on the Ark, for the duration? If there’s one thing they didn’t have a lot of, it would have been plants, surely. I guess if we go with pescetarian, we could be on to something. Even better for ovo-lacto pescetarian. And I guess everyone probably lost some weight. Yup. Back in the day, lions were very hip, and very slim. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/36 "2015-09-25T16:32:35Z")
hey - I never said the position made sense - but its based on the bible verses - pre-flood [QUOTE=Genesis 1:29] Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. [/QUOTE] post flood - [QUOTE=Genesis 9] Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything [/QUOTE] . ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/37 "2015-09-27T20:10:44Z")
Yeah, but all that means is that humans were vegetarians until after the flood. Apparently he gave the animals other animals to eat well before this. Usually, it’s said that it happened right after Adam and Eve sinned, so animals could no longer eat from the tree of life–which people claim was what kept everyone immortal. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/38 "2015-09-27T21:04:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, but all that means is that humans were vegetarians until after the flood. Apparently he gave the animals other animals to eat well before this. > > Usually, it’s said that it happened right after Adam and Eve sinned, so animals could no longer eat from the tree of life–which people claim was what kept everyone immortal. There’s nothing in the scripture about when he gave the animals meat to eat - its ‘clear’ in 1:9 that he includes the animals as vegitarians at that point. The similarities in word structure @ 9 ‘just as I gave you before, I give you now’ would certainly imply thats when he also loosened the rules for the animals. So - there is no ‘apparently’ here unless you have a biblical cite for it - since we’re talking about what is in the bible. (and I don;t really mean to belabor the point - scripturally, we were vegetarians until the flood - the animals were vegetarians “until some point” - biblically, all we have is those two sections that speak to it) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/39 "2015-09-28T14:23:09Z")
If humans were vegetarians until the flood, why did Abel raise and kill animals? For fun? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444/40 "2015-09-28T15:28:46Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > If humans were vegetarians until the flood, why did Abel raise and kill animals? For fun? sheep - for wool- beyond that - we can only guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noahs-flood-and-the-leaf/732444.md?page=3)