# Nobel Literature Head to America: You Suck **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928 "2008-09-30T22:27:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gybefan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@gybefan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gybefan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/41 "2008-10-01T14:28:05Z")
> [@ArizonaTeach](#): > > Wait, was that addressed to me? Because I was being sarcastic with Faulkner, that if the Nobel people’s criteria for selecting winners was based around people who were **not** writing about American and Americana, then what the hell were they doing giving it to Faulkner? No, basically I was saying that the guy is full of shit. It seems like their standards shifted over time. After Faulkner, every American who won the prize dealt as much with international themes as with specifically American ones, up to Morrison, who’s arguably a step beyond writers like Delillo in her willingness to integrate modernist methodology into her stuff. Philip Roth seems to have been a contender for a while, but he’s been pretty universal in his themes for a long time. International literature is such an embarrassment of riches these days that they’re justified in continuing to name European writers - Milan Kundera is deserving, and it’ll be a shame on them if they never pick Peter Handke - but his line about the safety of writing in Europe doesn’t make much sense. Freedom alone doesn’t make for great writing anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/42 "2008-10-01T14:32:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, and no. I agree that ‘nationalism’ is not perfectly suited to describe the situation. But it does well enough. The EU has its own laws, currency and governing bodies. I suppose instead of ‘nationalism’ I could’ve said ‘unionism’ but that just sounds weird. > > No BFD from where I sit, more like RO. > An idiot ‘unionistic’, eurocentric gasbag was pitted. I happen to agree that the pitee was being a douche. It’s not just being nitpicky, though- as a European (expat), I can assure you that the various bits of Europe spend much more time hating each other than they do hating America. Well, pre-Bush, they did. Now, perhaps not. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/43 "2008-10-01T14:41:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not just being nitpicky, though- as a European (expat), I can assure you that the various bits of Europe spend much more time hating each other than they do hating America. No, I certainly understand that, and I lived in London for a while and traveled around Europe a bit. Only for half a year, but I still got a bit of a taste. I’m well aware that the various nations that compose the EU have their own distinct cultures, histories, politics, cuisine, etc, etc, etc… (Then again, so do America’s states to a lesser degree). I needed to find a word that would express someone treating Europe-as-an-entity the same way they might treat their own nation if they were overly nationalistic. Eurocentric, while accurate in this case, doesn’t tell the whole story. I still think that ‘nationalistic’ is fairly apt, and ‘unionistic’ is too unwieldy. What would you suggest instead to describe a European who treats Europe the same way an overly patriotic… I don’t know… Canadian might treat Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/44 "2008-10-01T14:44:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What would you suggest instead to describe a European who treats Europe the same way an overly patriotic… I don’t know… Canadian might treat Canada? Well, I’d call the Canadian nationalistic or xenophobic depending on the tone of his patriotism. Canada is a country too, y’know. 😃 As for the pro-Europe guy… I dunno. “Regionalist”? “Continentalist”? I like continentalist. “Minion of ZOG”, maybe, if you’re one of those freako “the Rothschilds are taking over the world” types. ETA: I think the Nobel voter guy’s tone is more anti-American than pro-European. It isn’t so much that he’s dismissing the rest of the world, he just has a sort of patrician attitude to it - “if you write a cookbook in Singapore you will be _killed_!” He’s critical of American authors, rather than the government, though; it’s as if he’s saying “African/Asian writers are good and are being held back, but American writers just aren’t good”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/45 "2008-10-01T14:49:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I like continentalist. Agreed. Regionalist it is. What? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: I think the Nobel voter guy’s tone is more anti-American than pro-European. It isn’t so much that he’s dismissing the rest of the world, he just has a sort of patrician attitude to it - “if you write a cookbook in Singapore you will be _killed_!” He’s critical of American authors, rather than the government, though; it’s as if he’s saying “African/Asian writers are good and are being held back, but American writers just aren’t good”. Oh, I’d agree on that point. But his claim that Europe is the only place in the world with freedom of speech is regionalistic enough to redline my BS sensor. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/46 "2008-10-01T14:50:54Z")
The guy’s an idiot, and speaking English as a second language/poor translation possibly didn’t help (if that’s what happened). Does anybody even pay any attention to the “soft” Nobel prizes any more, anyway? By the way, who are the big American authors these days? Who are the authors competing with Faulkner and Hemingway? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/47 "2008-10-01T14:53:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Oh, I’d agree on that point. But his claim that Europe is the only place in the world with freedom of speech is regionalistic enough to redline my BS sensor. Absolutely. That said, Europe doesn’t have the _religious_ thought police we do- while there may be grumbling from conservative religious groups about _A Brief History of Christ’s Sex Life_ being available through public libraries, it certainly wouldn’t be banned, as it might in, say, Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/48 "2008-10-01T14:55:07Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Does anybody even pay any attention to the “soft” Nobel prizes any more, anyway? Trivia night MCs and TIME magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Westrogothia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@Westrogothia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Westrogothia)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/49 "2008-10-01T15:04:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What’s funny is that for a poster who started his spew in a thread by accusing other of not having read an article… you evidently either didn’t read it, or just skimmed it. Well I wasnt accusing you of not reading it. I was doubting you had understood it. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > The claim was made that “many authors who have their roots in other countries work in Europe, because it is only here where you can be left alone and write, without being beaten to death” > Only Europe? Only? As should be obvious, this is such blatantly idiotic, nationalistic, eurocentric drool that you should have spotted it, even with your agenda of being a massive twat. Reading comprehension implies reading between the lines not just understanding all the words. Obviously hes not saying that america beats writers (well unless they say america sucks) I thought this was Obvious™ > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Speaking of which, it’s elucidative that when a European gasbag claims that Europe is the best in the world, indeed virtually the nexus for the entire world when it comes to the intellectual pursuit and exchange that is literature, you see no problem with such absurd nationalistic swill. In fact, you took it upon yourself to try to annoy those who had a problem with it. And you pretend that the Americans in this thread supported such a view for their nation, and tried to pick fights with them based on that strawman. irony - Using elucidative and gasbag in the same sentence. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Your _very first post in the thread_ accused Americans of being “batshit” and “going patriotic”. Obviously, if they were already doing such a thing, it couldn’t have been in response to you. In fact, you were talking about people’s response to Engdahl, not to you. Yes I was using the faux newspaper headline motif there. Obviously the joke failed. wich is why I “weaseled” and tried to refine my point in the [ETA: third post] next post. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re not even lying very well, I’m afraid. While you seem to be quite good at it. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Naw, you don’t honestly misunderstand what happened, you’re just being a disingenuous twat. You weren’t told to fuck off for “pointing out” that a misunderstanding might have occurred. Yes I was told to fuck off, in a thread discussing free speach for writers and you are calling ME a disingenuos twat? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > As I already said, you started with an obnoxious strawman, accused the posters in this thread of going “batshit”, not reading the article and “going patriotic” which, whatever your weaseling now, you obviously meant as a slur about jingoism. All that in your very first post. And that’s what you were told to fuck off for, which you took as an excuse to further play “bait the Americans”. > > But come on, you’re just a twat on the internet looking to annoy Americans by dishonestly picking fights. In other words, you’re a troll. Let’s not play games here. Well since we are not playing games here. You sir are an overbearing ass. Defining your point is not weaseling. And I actually had a point, I thought the thread was unfair. Annoying you, heinous crime as it may be, is not the definition of a troll. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > So I’ll second the recommendation, fuck off, troll. As always sir, your wit is razor sharp. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/50 "2008-10-01T15:13:23Z")
Just off the top of my head, along with the authors previously mentioned, Tom Wolfe, Michael Chabon, John Updike and Larry McMurtry all are the equal of any author Europe can produce, and are better than most of them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/51 "2008-10-01T15:48:29Z")
Yep, and speaking of which, Chabon’s _The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay_ happened to be set in America, but a huge part of it dealt with a Jewish European refugee from the Holocaust. But I guess writing about the experiences of diverse people melting together to form a national identity is just so very isolationist 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/52 "2008-10-01T16:44:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yep, and speaking of which, Chabon’s _The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay_ happened to be set in America, but a huge part of it dealt with a Jewish European refugee from the Holocaust. But I guess writing about the experiences of diverse people melting together to form a national identity is just so very isolationist 😃 Not to mention _The Yiddish Policemen’s Union_, which, while based in Alaska, deals with world issues throughout the novel. Chabon’s a good candidate, but I’m not sure his literary output is quite _there_ yet. However, Chabon’s _Gentlmen of the Road_ should silence anyone who thinks American writers are insular. A buddy-story with an African Jew traveling in Turkey 1000 years ago that’s dedicated to Michael Moorcock and inspired by Alexandre Dumas?!? ---
**Author:** ![BurnMeUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@BurnMeUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BurnMeUp)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/53 "2008-10-01T17:56:57Z")
I think it was David Sedaris who wrote something to the line of “Most countries have a national sloagan, none of these are ‘We’re number 2’.” Sure Americans think their country is great. Most people think their country is great. Just some of us are a little more boistrous about it. it’s just like religion, there are a lot of people out there who are keen on Jesus/Yaweh/Allah. Only a few loud mothed people shout it from the rafters. They’re the ones that end up getting the others labeled poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/54 "2008-10-02T05:32:49Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > Deep stupidity, and distinctly nasty. Nations don’t write books. Individuals write books. Nobody has starved for ‘outside influence’ since the days of travel by horse and sail. To claim that _now_ is patently ridiculous. > > Engdahl is an Eurocentric ass. His prejudice blinds him. I’m sure as hell not saying the US is ‘the’ literary center for the world. But Engdahl is a bigot. Period. He prejudges authors from the US not for what they wrote, but on what he believes to be their homegrown cultural limitations. > . Exactly. Engdahl’s points are not entirely without merit, but they were put in a deliberately antagonistic way that clearly shows the parochialism he professes to despise. While it’s true that America isn’t a patchwork of small, diverse nations and regions each with its own ancient history _in situ_, the culture and economic shock incurred in crossing our one southern border must be worth at least a few of the umpteen international boundaries separating European countries, which are largely similar in economic structure, cultural values, and ways of life even if they do represent distinctively different historical cultures that define their visual aspects. Nor should we expect that America is automatically entitled to be in the running, because we’re geographically big, or have the biggest army, or more people than any three European countries (or not, I’m not sure). We’re just another country. On the other hand, America is ahead in terms of cultural inclusiveness and a long history of assimilating numerous immigrants from all over the earth. The diversity here is not in being able to cross two language regions in less than a day on the train, it’s all around us, every day. What’s troubling is that the caricature of Americans as pop-culture, hamburger wolfing, gun shooting, and yee-hawing buffoons seems to be increasingly projected, by European writers, on all of us. Palin is an admittedly cringe-worthy target, to name just one example, but what’s hardly ever acknowledged is that there are plenty of us here cringing about her as well. I don’t know if the picture I get of this, mainly from the Internet but also from various American newspapers, is accurate, or if it’s being shaded by editors hoping to foment anti-Euro resentment. From the New York Times though, I doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/55 "2008-10-02T05:50:02Z")
If Harold Bloom’s Big Four is the best we have to offer, well then I have to side with Douchebag. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/56 "2008-10-02T09:50:14Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > If Harold Bloom’s Big Four is the best we have to offer, well then I have to side with Douchebag. Certainly DeLillo isn’t any sort of contender. What I’ve read of his epitomizes the insularity charge. There are plenty of better American writers. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/57 "2008-10-02T12:50:26Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Certainly DeLillo isn’t any sort of contender. What I’ve read of his epitomizes the insularity charge. There are plenty of better American writers. I echo this. I think DeLillo writes horrendously overrated, intellectually smug, self-regarding, pompous twaddle. But this doesn’t alter Engdahl’s douchebaggery. I agree with **Mr Moto**. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/58 "2008-10-02T14:02:51Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I echo this. I think DeLillo writes horrendously overrated, intellectually smug, self-regarding, pompous twaddle. > > But this doesn’t alter Engdahl’s douchebaggery. I agree with **Mr Moto**. Like I said - the USA has many fine writers. I’d pick Gore Vidal for a Nobel. He certainly isn’t insular and unengaged with world literature or themes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/59 "2008-10-02T14:12:16Z")
Not to change the subject, but I’ve been thinking a lot about Tom Wolfe lately - as he has been ahead of most commentary on important issues in our society for an awfully long time. His last couple of books sold like hotcakes, but were panned a bit by critics. I wonder whether they deserve a reassessment - as Charlie Croker in _A Man In Full_ seemed an embodiment of all of those people slammed today by dabbling in real estate speculation, and in _I Am Charlotte Simmons_ he portrayed a campus culture that is hypersexualized and corrupted by high-profile sport. In short order, the Duke rape case and football scandals at Alabama and Colorado, among others, make his observations seem particularly germane. It might seem strange to seek a reassessment of a popular author who has his critical fans, but Wolfe has his critics too. I’m wondering whether they might change their minds a bit looking at these books now. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928/60 "2008-10-02T14:21:53Z")
> [@ArizonaTeach](#): > > Not to mention _The Yiddish Policemen’s Union_, which, while based in Alaska, deals with world issues throughout the novel. Chabon’s a good candidate, but I’m not sure his literary output is quite _there_ yet. > > However, Chabon’s _Gentlmen of the Road_ should silence anyone who thinks American writers are insular. A buddy-story with an African Jew traveling in Turkey 1000 years ago that’s dedicated to Michael Moorcock and inspired by Alexandre Dumas?!? I think Charbon will definitely be a contender in a few years, or decades. He’s a guy to watch. Right now, I’d put my bets on Cormac McCarthy, “insular” or not. Oh, and I agree that the pitting is fully justified (I’m a Canadian). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobel-literature-head-to-america-you-suck/465928.md?page=4)