# Nobody truly does anything s/he doesn't want to do **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140 "2005-04-19T22:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/21 "2005-04-20T22:35:45Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > It’s wanting by habit… Is still wanting. Just because the reason you want it is gone doesn’t mean you don’t still want it. And the bit about different parts of the brain, well, yeah that does get hairy. > [@](#): > > How can you prove you have free will when anything you do, by definition, is simply supplying a want of yours? Well, I don’t believe in free will, but it seems to me that it’s non-falsifiable. And if this is a restatement of the obvious, why do people whine and moan about things they “don’t want to do”? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/22 "2005-04-20T22:41:47Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Of course, this leads to **Mangetout** ’s point. We don’t know what he wanted. But have you ever done anything that you truly didn’t want to do (using my peculiar definition)? Of course not, because your definition defines everything I do as falling into one of two categories; 1) things I _‘want’_ to do and 2)insane or random, motiveless actions. You might even be right when we dig down to the deepest levels of psychology, brain chemistry and cause and effect, it simply isn’t a very useful definition of ‘want’, is all. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/23 "2005-04-21T00:36:58Z")
But how do you perform an insane, motiveless action? ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/24 "2005-04-21T00:56:38Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > But how do you perform an insane, motiveless action? With style and grace. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/25 "2005-04-21T00:59:31Z")
A person could perform an insane or motiveless action by reason of being insane and/or by accident. I think I could succesfully argue that an insane person might really really NOT want (in every sense of the \*\*Strinka \*\* definition) to harm himself, but might do it anyway, because he is insane and unable to stop himself. And I think I would be quite safe arguing that someone could accidentally cut off their fingers with a bandsaw without wanting (in the \*\*Strinka \*\* definition) to do it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/26 "2005-04-21T01:29:59Z")
You’ve all been dancing around the core concept here: All behavior is socially learned. **TonyF** almost had it when he said: > [@TonyF](#): > > A motivation prompts an action. Take any motivation, and it’s still a subset of All Motivations; take any action, and it’s still a subset of All Actions. It’s not really surprising that if a relationship exists between either, that someone willed it to exist - could it exist any other way? The only thing missing here is that All Motivations includes the motivations imparted to the individual by society. In fact, there is no “self” as we commonly believe there to be, only a composition of social forces. You, me, everyone else is the sum of social interactions which comprise our lives. How does this connect back to the OP? It’s correct, but it’s not the whole picture. No one does anything that society hasn’t given them impetus to do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/27 "2005-04-21T12:49:39Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > You can not pay taxes, be conficted of tax evasion, and go to prison. You just don’t want to. First, I can choose not to pay income taxes, but I can’t avoid taxes altogether. Ang again, wanting to do something and wanting to avoid the consequences of not doing that thing are different beasts. To me, wanting means I would do it barring outside compulsion. Taxes? Not something I want to do. Charity? Something I do though not compelled. If I weren’t forced to pay taxes, I wouldn’t pay taxes. I am not forced to give to charity yet I give to charity. Both involve money leaving my wallet, but not in the same way. I want to be useful. I am compelled to work in a job that pays the bills. It happens that my desire to be useful is met by working, but if I didn’t have to work, I’d find another way to be useful. Sometimes the wants and the externally compelled actions overlap like that, but not universally. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/28 "2005-04-21T13:27:06Z")
**jsgoddess** , you’re use of “want” in the above post is entirely proper. The OP’s analysis is also perfectly intelligible. When I said “you don’t have to pay taxes” I was teasing you a bit, illustrating my earlier point that both sides of this argument depend upon some platonic ideal of the “real” meaning of a phrase, and that language doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/29 "2005-04-21T20:27:15Z")
> [@](#): > > You can not pay taxes, be conficted of tax evasion, and go to prison. You just don’t want to. Ah, but this would simply move the payment, in the actor’s mind, from the rote payments made to the government to the later restitution and jail time. Thus the taxes remain paid in all probability. But again, the OP says nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/30 "2005-04-22T01:07:19Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > But again, the OP says nothing. I have school. I can’t post twenty-four hours a day. > [@Mangetout](#): > > A person could perform an insane or motiveless action by reason of being insane and/or by accident. > > I think I could succesfully argue that an insane person might really really NOT want (in every sense of the \*\*Strinka > \*\* definition) to harm himself, but might do it anyway, because he is insane and unable to stop himself. > > And I think I would be quite safe arguing that someone could accidentally cut off their fingers with a bandsaw without wanting (in the \*\*Strinka > \*\* definition) to do it at all. You’re completely right. I can’t imagine that I missed accidents. Luckily, I don’t have to since I somehow actually didn’t think of them. Maybe that’s what I couldn’t put my finger on. How about “No one _intentionally_ does anything they don’t want to do”? > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Ang again, wanting to do something and wanting to avoid the consequences of not doing that thing are different beasts. To me, wanting means I would do it barring outside compulsion. Well, it seems quite obvious that “Nobody truly does anything s/he doesn’t want to do” is not true using any other definition of want than the one we’ve been using here. The question is, using that definintion, is there anything wrong with it? **Mangetout** poked one hole in it. Are there any others? > [@smiling bandit](#): > > Ah, but this would simply move the payment, in the actor’s mind, from the rote payments made to the government to the later restitution and jail time. Thus the taxes remain paid in all probability. But it’s not your decision to go to jail. It would be your decision to go docilely, but if you didn’t they would force you. And by force here, I don’t mean they would say “do it or else” I mean they would physically restrain and move you. If someone steals your money, you’re not paying them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/31 "2005-04-22T01:14:35Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Well, it seems quite obvious that “Nobody truly does anything s/he doesn’t want to do” is not true using any other definition of want than the one we’ve been using here. Who is this “we,” kemosabe? Your definition of “want” is circular. Anything you do you wanted to do because you did it because you wanted to because you did it. ---
**Author:** ![TheSquirrelfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@TheSquirrelfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSquirrelfish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/32 "2005-04-22T02:34:14Z")
I’ve come to this conclusion from a different angle in the past. I want to be happy and to be happy I have to feel that I am a good person. To feel that I am a good person have to buy (with money earned through personal effort or similar) rather than steal the things I need. Therefore though I may hate my job and not want to deal with another stupid customer my want to be a good person and earn my way means I want to do it. This theory always ends up for me at: Everything is a choice, in that one can always choose to die. You can only be forced as far as you want to live or can be tricked. Oh what story was that “I prefer not too…” gah… help me. Early American author, about the scrivener… ---
**Author:** ![TheSquirrelfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@TheSquirrelfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSquirrelfish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/33 "2005-04-22T02:37:11Z")
Herman Melville’s Bartleby. Sorry, but it isn’t a highjack, this is just an illustration of where this can go. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/34 "2005-04-22T02:42:05Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Who is this “we,” kemosabe? Many of us here it would seem. > [@](#): > > Your definition of “want” is circular. Anything you do you wanted to do because you did it because you wanted to because you did it. I don’t think so. I would say ‘to want’ means “to have a desire for”. I believe the peculiarity of how I’m using it is that I am summing wants. I am not defining ‘want’ as “what you did”. But it seemed that logically that is necessary based on that definition (excluding **Mangetout** ’s now obvious exception). An analogy: Using the definitions of sine and cosine I can mathematically prove that sine[sup]2[/sup]x=1-cosine[sup]2[/sup]x, which is true in all cases despite the fact that that is not in the definition. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140/35 "2005-04-22T03:44:45Z")
by Strinka > [@](#): > > I have school. I can’t post twenty-four hours a day. Ah no. Your original post says nothing important, not you specifically. You’re defining your terms in such as way that it is always true from your perspective. Put another way, it simply says that “people don’t do things without having a halfway good reason for it”. While not always and entirely true, it’s accurate enough. However, in and of itself it says nothing interesting or important. I still don’t understand what tyhe actual debate _is_; nothign seems to have been said here. > [@](#): > > But it’s not your decision to go to jail. Yes. So? My point was that you’re essentially just transferring the pain of paying taxes into a risk based guess that you won’t get caught cheating on the taxes and sent to jail or fined a much more. Unless you have really good lawyers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobody-truly-does-anything-s-he-doesnt-want-to-do/300140.md?page=1)