# Nobody's Pitted Gen. John Kelly, that national disgrace? Allow me, then. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427 "2017-10-21T12:17:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/61 "2017-10-22T03:32:48Z")
Just as a fact check, here is the definition from [Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whore) > [@](#): > > Definition of whore > 1 :a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : prostitute; also, informal + offensive : a promiscuous or immoral woman > 2 :a male who engages in sexual acts for money > 3 :a venal or unscrupulous person Since no one has claimed that definition 1 applies, and certainly 2 does not, definition 3 seems to be implied. And seems appropriate. The language has moved on. Wouldn’t want to risk confusion in a speech or published work, but here in the Pit? C’mon now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/62 "2017-10-22T03:44:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Just as a fact check, here is the definition from [Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whore) > Since no one has claimed that definition 1 applies, and certainly 2 does not, definition 3 seems to be implied. And seems appropriate. > > The language has moved on. Wouldn’t want to risk confusion in a speech or published work, but here in the Pit? C’mon now. Definitions are interlinked, and #3 comes about as a figurative usage of the first definition. The issue isn’t confusion; I laid out what the issues are earlier. It’s not the language that’s moved on, though, it may as well be the thread. I believe **septimus** has apologized, and I’m good with that :). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/63 "2017-10-22T04:47:29Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Kelly over-reacted and said things he should not have. But, he got that same call himself and my impression is that to him the politicization of such an event is in very poor taste. Then he should have had the balls to tell Trump, who started the entire politicisation of sympathy calls by saying that Bush and Obama didn’t do them, that Trump was off-side and shouldn’t be trying to score political points off of this issue. Kelly didn’t do that. Instead, he went out and contributed to the politicisation of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/64 "2017-10-22T04:50:40Z")
Oh and to participate in the hijack search for the insulting word to call a male, equivalent to “whore”, there’s always “catamite”. Kelly is now Donald’s Catamite. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/65 "2017-10-22T06:49:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ah she’s on the right. She’s not a real woman. Call and do with her as you wish. It’s funny how the Pit reveals people’s real character. You got that straight. It’s amazing how some of these people consider themselves the progressives. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/66 "2017-10-22T10:03:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ah she’s on the right. She’s not a real woman. Call and do with her as you wish. It’s funny how the Pit reveals people’s real character. > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > You got that straight. > > It’s amazing how some of these people consider themselves the progressives. Yeah, and we’ve spoken with such a unified voice in this thread about this, haven’t we? You know what? We lefties aren’t perfect. We aren’t pure as the driven snow. But right here, you’re seeing what happens when we ACT less than perfect. We argue, we question each other, as a group we don’t double down on our bad behavior. I’m probably good for another 30 years on this planet. I hope to see the right get to that point, but I don’t really have high hopes. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/67 "2017-10-22T11:57:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ah she’s on the right. She’s not a real woman. Call and do with her as you wish. It’s funny how the Pit reveals people’s real character. > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > You got that straight. > > It’s amazing how some of these people consider themselves the progressives. “Tut-tut,” said **octopus**. “Tsk, tsk,” offered **HeweyLogan**. “Shame, shame?” “After you,” **octopus** replied, girding his forefinger for a vigorous wag. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/68 "2017-10-22T12:01:01Z")
**HeweyLogan** and **octopus** , WTF? Here’s the difference between you guys and normal people. One poster phrases something badly. He’s immediately jumped on. Others rationally delve into why that’s bad phrasing and when it might be acceptable. The poster researches his own usage to show that he really doesn’t use it in a sexist way, apologizes for it coming across that way, and looks to do better. Here’s you guys: Hurr durr, liberals are sexist too. Derp. Back to Kelly. **Stringbean** , he had many opportunities to take the higher ground, to de-escalate rather than making the phone call even more political, to tell Trump to go pound sand about getting out in front of people to defend Trump, not to do that bullshit speech about better times when women were sacred, etc. Instead, he sold out like the Catamite he is. I don’t know why he should get any further doubtal benefits. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/69 "2017-10-22T12:27:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The hijack continues: > > Is there a gender neutral term for someone who has sold out their principles and morals for money or other material things? I wouldn’t mind seeing some consideration given to the idea of _mercenary_, which doesn’t automatically connote a military context. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/70 "2017-10-22T12:46:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I wouldn’t mind seeing some consideration given to the idea of _mercenary_, which doesn’t automatically connote a military context. Hired gun works, for the same reason, and is a better metaphor, inasmuch as it’s trading fucking people over, not fucking people, for money. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/71 "2017-10-22T13:31:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Hired gun works, for the same reason, and is a better metaphor, inasmuch as it’s trading fucking people over, not fucking people, for money. ‘Hired gun’ isn’t as strong, I think. Paladin in \*Have Gun, Will Travel \*was a hired gun. And even IRL the connotation isn’t entirely bad. The connotation of _mercenary_, however, is pretty much universally negative. Mercenaries are generally reviled. ETA: I don’t think the label really applies to Sarah Huckabee Sanders, though. She’s a true believer, AFAICT. Trump can do no wrong in her eyes. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/72 "2017-10-22T18:43:01Z")
There’s Dashiell Hammett’s favorite, [gunsel.](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel) ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/73 "2017-10-22T19:09:01Z")
Most excellent pitting. Just the fact that Kelly defends the corrupt Trump administration is enough to make him deserve a pitting. That he lied about an event available for all to view on YouTube, proves him stupid and not worthy to be defending us from a nuclear war set off by the Great Orange Leader. He needs to leave public life. He’s a disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/74 "2017-10-22T20:52:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Back to Kelly. **Stringbean** , he had many opportunities to take the higher ground, to de-escalate rather than making the phone call even more political, to tell Trump to go pound sand about getting out in front of people to defend Trump, not to do that bullshit speech about better times when women were sacred, etc. Instead, he sold out like the Catamite he is. I don’t know why he should get any further doubtal benefits. I suppose if he hadn’t aligned himself and now unscrupulously defended a president who attacked John McCain for being a captured “war hero” then we could proffer John Kelly more leeway. As I said, he was wrong but I won’t go so far as to say fuck him. This hits home far more for him than it does Trump or the cowboy Congresswoman from Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/75 "2017-10-22T21:12:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I wouldn’t mind seeing some consideration given to the idea of _mercenary_, which doesn’t automatically connote a military context. > [@HelenGawn](#): > > There’s Dashiell Hammett’s favorite, [gunsel.](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel) I’m going to go with “toady.” But “toady” emphasizes the obsequious-ness, and fails to highlight the corruption, the opportunism, and the lack of shame. The fact is that we need a word that’s gender-neutral AND conveys “corrupt” and “without integrity” and “sycophantic” and, for good measure, “disgraceful defender of the disgustingly, appallingly indefensible.” ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/76 "2017-10-22T23:56:58Z")
“Rent boy” also works. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/77 "2017-10-23T00:15:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > ‘Hired gun’ isn’t as strong, I think. Paladin in \*Have Gun, Will Travel \*was a hired gun. And even IRL the connotation isn’t entirely bad. It’s a fucked up world when being a hired gun is considered more honorable than being a sex worker. For me, “hired gun” has loathsome connotations, but I’ll trust that others don’t mind it. All the other variants of “He’s like someone who trades sex for money, i.e., utterly without morals” are shitty metaphors IMO. Kelly’s problem is that he trades his integrity for power, is that he’s perfectly willing to engage in dishonest character assassination in order to please his boss. Whether that’s mercenary or hired gun or some other metaphor, the key point is, it’s despicable. ---
**Author:** ![neofishboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/neofishboy/32/444_2.png) [@neofishboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neofishboy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/78 "2017-10-23T00:37:48Z")
I dunno … I usually hear “hired gun” as a completely innocuous metaphor for a person outside of an organization hired for a specific task. How about “lickspittle”? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/79 "2017-10-23T01:24:43Z")
The _New Yorker_ nails it, as always: [John Kelly and the Dangerous Moral Calculus of Working for Trump](https://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/john-kelly-and-the-dangerous-moral-calculus-of-working-for-trump) The basic theme is summed up under a picture of John Kelly: “The White House chief of staff, John Kelly, is the latest example of how the President sullies the reputations of those who work with and for him.” So true. It’s impossible to be part of that shit-show without turning into one of them, or else you don’t survive. On his very first day, Sean Spicer had to blatantly lie about the “record size” of the Inauguration crowd. There was another article on the extraordinary number of senior staffers who have since departed, voluntarily or involuntarily. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427/80 "2017-10-23T01:29:10Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The _New Yorker_ nails it, as always: > [John Kelly and the Dangerous Moral Calculus of Working for Trump](https://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/john-kelly-and-the-dangerous-moral-calculus-of-working-for-trump) > > The basic theme is summed up under a picture of John Kelly: “The White House chief of staff, John Kelly, is the latest example of how the President sullies the reputations of those who work with and for him.” > > So true. It’s impossible to be part of that shit-show without turning into one of them, or else you don’t survive. **On his very first day, Sean Spicer had to blatantly lie about the “record size” of the Inauguration crowd.** There was another article on the extraordinary number of senior staffers who have since departed, voluntarily or involuntarily. Spicer had already gone over to the Orange Side long before. He was the one that came up with the “My Little Pony” and “words in the dictionary” defense of Melania’s speech at the RNC. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nobodys-pitted-gen-john-kelly-that-national-disgrace-allow-me-then/799427.md?page=5)