Except that nobody disputes that a head nod is an abbreviated bow. And people bow to signal subservience/acquiescence the world over. Yet the head nod doesn’t mean “no” the world over.
Of course this doesn’t mean that the head nod meaning “yes” didn’t originate as a bow. It simply means that when it doesn’t mean “yes” it has other origins.
Similarly the fact that the head shake doesn’t mean “no” everywhere is not evidence that it didn’t originate from the infantile refusal gesture where it does mean “no”.
I know it’s a bit complicated, but try to bare with me. Gestures, like sounds, can originate in many ways. As a result on different cultures we get “homophones” that are physically the same, but with different meanings, and we get “synonyms” which have identical meanings but are different physically.
None of this casts doubt the origins of the words/gestures in their own cultures. All it means is that you can’t apply the same origin to the word “no” in English and Japanese. Which is essentially what you have tried to do.
Well until recently it had other meanings in the English speaking world. The most common of which were “zero” and hence worthless and “anus” and this was an obscene insult. In much of the world it still is an obscene insult, ranging in meaning from a mild “fuck you” and “you’re an arsehole” to the killing insulta “I’m fucking your wife” or “you’re gay”. Seriously, don’t use this symbol in other countries unless you’re sure of how it will be interpreted.
The recent western meaning stems from the engineering profession. The thumb and forefinger held close together but not touching means"it’s close but needs a little adjustment". This is the symbol Max Smart uses with his “Missed it by that much” line. By extension when thumb and forefinger were touching it meant “that’s perfect, it needs no further adjustment”.
It probably originated as a way for engineers to communicate in noisy workshops. One person adjusted one part of a machine while a person several metres away watched the result and indicated how close things were, starting at ~four inches and bringing the fingers closer together as the fit got tighter. When the adjustment was perfect the closed thumb and fingers were jerked towards the adjuster and the head nodded to indicate he should stop turning the screw or whatever the adjustment technique was.
Firstly, the common expression meaning zero was usually accompanied by a shake of the head together with a facial expression of the lower lip protruding well belowthe upper and also a slight narrowing of the eyes.
The thumb and forefinger held close together meaning “almost” was usually expressed by holding these two digits horizontally and not as if to form a circle.
Second and Third.
In engineering workshops it is usual practice for the machine operator to set up the operation without assistance, this is why we have skilled engineers, these guys work in micros sometimes, they know, or are supposed to know, just how much adjustment is needed by sight without the need for an assistant who would be quite useless standing any distance from the machine
I don’t doubt the insult reference in your first para but would like to know which countries the joining of forefinger and thumb is an insult. Wouldn’t like a smack in the chops would I ?
Chowder please don’t beat around the bush. If you are actually disputing anything then clearly state your disbelief and I will bury you in references to highlight your ignorance.
None of what I stated there is in any way controversial or less than thoroughly established. The fact that you find it unlikely only shows that the truth is often hard for people to believe.
I would actually be interested to see some references for the part about it originally being a measurement gesture between engineers in noisy workshops. That kind of screams “urban myth”, to me. There can’t have been a huge proportion of the population who encountered that particular situation, and engineers are, shall we say, not particularly noted for their communications skills, so it somehow seems unlikely that an esoteric piece of laboratory sign language would have spread to the general population. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I just remain to be convinced.
It’s not so much that Indians shake their head from side to side like Americans saying “No,” but rather they wobble them like those little dolls you put in the back window of your car. Yes, it can be disconcerting until you get used to it.
The meaning of head nods and shakes might not be universal, but it is very widespread indeed. Uncle Cecil agreeswith the completely logical explanation that they both come from babies’ gestures, as does reference.com.
It certainly makes more sense than claiming that it comes from bowing. Bowing was a gesture of greeting, not agreement (and it wasn’t always connected to subservience, either - equals bowed to each other). We often nod to greet someone now - but it’s a single (always single) nod that’s slightly longer and more exaggerated than the way we nod in agreement. That greeting nod does come from bowing, but it makes no sense to claim that the nod for yes does.
It developed from the Italian (or mostly Italian, anyway) gesture where the forefinger and thumb are kissed quickly, then said fingers pulled away from the mouth and held in the air in the same position they were in when kissed, to indicate that some item (esp. of food) is perfect.
Bulgarians do tend to be aware that they are nodding differently from everyone else, and I’ve seen them switch off in more touristy areas on the Black Sea coast. It took me about three months of living in Bulgaria to be able shake my head to indicate yes, and a lot longer to nod to indicate no. The result was: I shook my head for both yes AND no for awhile. That wasn’t confusing to anyone, I’m sure. Anyway, I’ve had people ask me, when I nodded Bulgarian-style, say to me, “Don’t Americans nod the other way?” to which I would say “Yeah, but I live in Bulgaria now, so I do it the Bulgarian way”.
Albanians do this, too, sometimes, although I wasn’t in Albania for long enough to pick up a pattern. But I traveled with a couple of American girls I had met en route and at one point we asked a guy if a bus would come, and he nodded. One of my friends then tried to ask when, but it had been immediately obvious to me that his nod indicated “no” - his facial expression had been negative. Confusion ensued. We ended up having to take a taxi.
Bulgarians also do a side-to-side head bobble not unlike the Indian bobble described in this thread. I’ve mostly managed to shed my Bulgarian mannerisms in the year since I’ve returned to the US (except when I’m speaking Bulgarian, when I immediately revert), but now that I’m in India, this one is back with a vengeance. It generally means something to the effect of “okay, this is acceptable to me” or something like that.
