# Noel Coward/Edna Ferber exchange: Real or apocryphal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 6, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094 "2005-10-06T20:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/1 "2005-10-06T20:29:24Z")
Coward: “You look almost like a man!” Ferber: “So do you!” ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/2 "2005-10-06T20:38:56Z")
It’s not recorded either in the Coward biography I have (“The Life of Noel Coward” by Cole Lesley) or Coward’s autobiography. Which isn’t to say it didn’t happen, just that neither Coward nor his biographer saw fit to report it. The references to Ferber in the biography indicate a deep and long-standing friendship between the two with a great deal of mutual respect and support. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/3 "2005-10-06T21:28:56Z")
As with so many of the quotes attributed to the Algonquin Group, of whom Ferber was a regular, this one is endlessly quoted and never sourced. It’s origin probably lies in Margaret Case Harriman’s 1951 book, _The Vicious Circle_. She was the daughter of Frank Case, the proprietor of the Algonquin Hotel, and grew up amongst the gossip and stories. This would make her a great source except that she was too young to have heard them herself - the real Algonquin lunches started around 1920 when she was still a child and ended by around 1930. And I don’t see the exchange in Case’s own 1938 book, _Tales of a Wayward Inn_. Of course it could date from after 1938 and Case Harriman was a New Yorker writer by at least 1940 so she was certainly an adult then. Verdict: not proven. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/4 "2005-10-06T22:40:29Z")
Hudson and Vazquez said it in “Aliens”… ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/5 "2005-10-06T22:54:04Z")
I thought it went: Coward: “You look almost like a man!” Ferber: “Pearls before swine!” Or, maybe it was . . . Coward: “You look almost like a man!” Ferber: “Perhaps, but tomorrow, _I’ll_ be sober!” ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/6 "2005-10-06T23:54:17Z")
While the 1951 book referenced by **Exapno** was probably the first appearance of the quote in the press, I found two further press appearances which contradict each other. In a 1974 NYTimes article it was reported that a reunion of some surviving Algonquin members produced the memory from George Openheimer(one of the original members) that it was Noel Coward to Ferber. A later(1978) article in the Washington Post about the biography of Ferber, written by her great niece Julie Goldsmith Gilbert, said that the quotes were between Alexander Wolcott and Ferber. Even though Openheimer was a member of the Round Table, it doesn’t mean he was there when the incident happened, assuming it happened. My money’s on Wolcott. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/7 "2005-10-07T01:39:56Z")
Moved to CS. - **xash** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/8 "2005-10-07T02:19:28Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > While the 1951 book referenced by **Exapno** was probably the first appearance of the quote in the press, I found two further press appearances which contradict each other. > > In a 1974 NYTimes article it was reported that a reunion of some surviving Algonquin members produced the memory from George Openheimer(one of the original members) that it was Noel Coward to Ferber. > > A later(1978) article in the Washington Post about the biography of Ferber, written by her great niece Julie Goldsmith Gilbert, said that the quotes were between Alexander Wolcott and Ferber. > > Even though Openheimer was a member of the Round Table, it doesn’t mean he was there when the incident happened, assuming it happened. My money’s on Wolcott. Woollcott. Three double letters. It’s certainly possible. Woollcott had had mumps as a child and became impotent and probably asexual. Cruel comments about his sexuality or lack of it were certainly a part of the group’s lore. And given Ferber’s and the others’ immersion in Broadway, Coward’s homosexuality wouldn’t have been as much of an issue for them as for most people in their day. But when contemporary attribution of quips for those folks is impossible to verify, 50-year-old memories aren’t a terribly solid source. Harriman Case’s book is a quarter-century closer to the event, which may mean something. Or not. Still not proven, as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/9 "2005-10-07T03:50:00Z")
I seem to recall reading that the exchange was between Ferber and Woollcott as well. Probably in _George S. Kaufman and his Friends_ by Scott Meredith. I don’t have my copy handy at the moment but I have a faint memory that Ferber and Woollcott didn’t care for each other. So it does seem to fit. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/10 "2005-10-07T03:57:15Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Woollcott. Three double letters. > > But when contemporary attribution of quips for those folks is impossible to verify, 50-year-old memories aren’t a terribly solid source. Harriman Case’s book is a quarter-century closer to the event, which may mean something. Or not. > > Still not proven, as far as I’m concerned. Sorry about that. Working from memory, which is obviously getting worse the older I get. I wonder if the biography is available(I’ll go to my public library Sunday), and if there is any footnote. Perhaps John Edwards could lend us a hand? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/11 "2005-10-07T04:37:54Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Perhaps John Edwards could lend us a hand? 🙂 I think you mean John Edward, who channels the dead. Up to this point, John Edward **s** has exhibited only the ability to channel a severly handicapped (but still living) fetus _in utero_. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/12 "2005-10-07T15:03:31Z")
> [@Kolak of Twilo](#): > > I seem to recall reading that the exchange was between Ferber and Woollcott as well. Probably in _George S. Kaufman and his Friends_ by Scott Meredith. I don’t have my copy handy at the moment but I have a faint memory that Ferber and Woollcott didn’t care for each other. So it does seem to fit. No, the anecdote in Meredith is between Coward and Ferber. p. 222. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/13 "2005-10-07T15:35:10Z")
Reminds me of the famous exchange the famously deep-voiced Tallulah Bankhead had with a male journalist: Journo: “Miss Bankhead, have you ever been confused for a man on the phone?” TB: “No - have you?” ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/14 "2005-10-07T19:00:56Z")
Thanks for all the info. One last thing I’ll add: The first time I ever heard this quote was on a TV series hosted by Mel Torme. The name was “It Was a Very Good Year.” Torme would take some year, and talk about some of the news stories of that year (usually in the 1920s or 1930s), and have some sketches in which actors would act out some news stories. I first heard the exchange on that program. I was just a kid and had no idea of the Algonquin Round Table, or its cast of characters, but I did remember that exchange. The actor in the male role was Jonathan “Dr. Smith” Harris (but I don’t remember the character). I had no idea who the female was, actress or character. However, many years later, I saw the move “Mrs. Parker and the Vicious Circle,” in which Lili Taylor has a brief role as Edna Ferber. I then thought, “Hey, she looks just like the woman in that “Very Good Year” sketch from years ago (although Ms. Taylor was obviously not the actress). Some time after that I actually read the quote was historically attributed to Ferber. I only wish I could remember whom Harris played in that sketch, Coward or Woollcott. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noel-coward-edna-ferber-exchange-real-or-apocryphal/325094/15 "2009-09-25T20:02:27Z")
:tap tap tap: Is this thing on? One addendum to my previous post: Some enterprising soul has posted the [cast list](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0973413/plotsummary) for that ep on IMDB. Apparently, Dr. Smith played Noel Coward, Victor Buono was Woollcott, and Anne Seymour was Ferber.