From here:
Given the history of the Bush administration, does anyone think that they will follow the letter of the law, or look for ways to interpret it to suit their purpose?
[QUOTE=Renob]
Yes. Did you actually read about changes to U.S. laws regarding alien enemy combatants?
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Yes. Did you notice how they didn’t follow the existing law when deporting Arar? Why should I trust them to obey their new laws?
No, that isn’t being forgotten. Nevertheless, Canada didn’t deport him. And as I said above, I’m currently living in the US, problem-free.
[QUOTE=Northern Piper]
Any other non-Americans reluctant to travel to the US nowadays?
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Yep.
Not because of fear of arrest etc. but just a micro boycott, if you will. I was thinking of going with the family to NY but re-thought it due to how much I disagree with what the US is doing politically.
It will make no difference whatsoever to anyone apart from me(not having fun in NY, the greatest city in the world™) but fuck it, I’ll give my money to someone else.
[QUOTE=Renob]
That’s a ridiculous assertion. If you, as a foreigner, get arrested here, you’ll have the same level of judicial protection you’ve always had. I know people like to think that Bush has destroyed the judicial system and made it so that he can lock up people forever without trial, but that is simply false.
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It’s perfectly legal now for the U.S. government to ship a foreign national to Guantanamo Bay and torture them without trial, or “render” them to a foreign country for torture. You can claim otherwise all you want, ut the fact is you do n ot have the right to receive a trial in any period of time; it’s now legal for them to hold you forever without trial or appeal.
Believe me, it’s crossed my mind, but I have to travel to the U.S. for my job, and anyway I’m not, shall we say, the sort to be “rendered.”
[QUOTE=Renob]
Two, even if you are declared this it means that you will have a trial in a military court. Three, you have the right of appeal to regular courts.
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Still waiting to see one of these cases GO to a civilian court. I imagine one or two of the Gitmo or other WoT detainees might have a vested interest in going to a civilian court.
Besides, there’s no right to a speedy trial in a military tribunal.
And you’re missing the damn point. PEOPLE DON’T LIKE TO BE UNNECESSARILY TRIED FOR CRIMES RELATING TO TERRORISM, regardless of the outcome.
Or shipped off to Syria, for that matter.
I’ll have to go back in the next year to close out some bank accounts and deal with income taxes. But I’m safe, since I’m the guardian of a U.S. citizen 
[QUOTE=Sunspace]
In fairness, I should say that I’m untrusting of the US system these days partly because of my choice of grandparents, family, friends, and family friends. They include political and social activists, socialist politicians, and other ne’er-do-wells, definitely people that a Bushite would distrust.
Come to think of it, just a) having a couple of Iranian acquaintances and b) speaking Esperanto probably puts me on a list.
I must add, though, that I personally have not been barred or had trouble entering the US, even though I know people that have.
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Hell, I’m married to an Iranian. My next-door neighbors are Iranians. My boss is an Iranian. Plus, I go around criticizing Bush all the freaking time. Yet nothing ever happens to me or the people I know.
Canadians being afraid to travel to the U.S. is like Americans being afraid to travel to Canada because of that one incident in which a ferryboat full of American tourists was trapped into a B.C. port making the tourists effective hostages. Canada ruled the blockade illegal but the authorities moved at a snails pace (if that) to break it up.
[QUOTE=Northern Piper]
Any other non-Americans reluctant to travel to the US nowadays?
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Nope. I’d love to visit the US. Hopefully early next year…
I think people are being wildly over-concerned. But I’m damn thankful and glad that some citizens are keeping their eyes on their government.
[QUOTE=yojimbo]
Yep.
Not because of fear of arrest etc. but just a micro boycott, if you will. I was thinking of going with the family to NY but re-thought it due to how much I disagree with what the US is doing politically.
[QUOTE]
I kind of feel the same way. I won’t avoid going to the States (though the only time I’ve gone in the past 6 years was last October, to get on a cruise ship in Port Canaveral) but I generally would simply rather go elsewhere, because of my thoughts on US politics. I am not in a “risky” demographic, so that doesn’t enter into the equation at all. The country just doesn’t have that much appeal to me. The Arar case, as well as other stories about complications people have had at the borders just make me think that it isn’t worth the effort to go visit anymore.
No, not really. My husband and I have our passports now, and don’t anticipate any problems with any U.S. officials, customs or otherwise (except those stupid Iowa State Police, and apparently, everyone has problems with them). Of course, the most serious problems are usually those you don’t anticipate. Spoons, I recall hearing that the passport requirement has been pushed back a little more - you’ll probably have time to get a guarantor now.
I think a lot of people here are being overly reactive to a situation that probably has been maginifed by the media, and on the other side, I think other people here are kind of ignoring just how far away from sane their government appears to have gotten to outside viewers.
[QUOTE=Renob]
That’s a ridiculous assertion. If you, as a foreigner, get arrested here, you’ll have the same level of judicial protection you’ve always had. I know people like to think that Bush has destroyed the judicial system and made it so that he can lock up people forever without trial, but that is simply false.
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Why is that thought false? Certainly most people arrested by the US still receive these protections but the US administration does not allow these protections for some people arrested by the the US. An individual arrested by the US has no way of knowing whether he/she will receive those protections if arrested.
[QUOTE=Renob]
All I’m saying is that if you are a foreigner and you are arrested in the U.S., you have the same level of protection as you had at any other time.
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Well I don’t believe that is true. Certainly prior to the war on terror there were no US Gov’t prisons outside of the legal system to put people in. [well, there could have been, but being a naive American I choose to believe that at one time we were a country that would not have done such a thing.] But certainly the possibility of this happening has significantly increased in the last few years.
[QUOTE=Renob]
Not quite. One, you have to be fighting against the U.S. If you are a Canadian visiting relatives in Florida, I have a hard time thinking that this could in any way be construed as fighting against the U.S. Two, even if you are declared this it means that you will have a trial in a military court. Three, you have the right of appeal to regular courts.
So all this concern about foreigners being rounded up and thrown into jail forever is completelyl ridiculous. These fears have absolutely no basis in fact and they are just people over-reacting because of their hatred for Bush.
[/QUOTE]
?
Suffice to say that my understanding of the actions of the US government are very much different from this. American citizens have been arrested, in the US, and sent off to detention outside the legal system. Padulla eventually was charged-though for crimes that had no relation to the reasons he was arrested, but there is no reason to assume that what happened to him couldn’t happen on anyone. Mistakes happen, as has been clearly shown multiple times in the war on terror. Removing the legal safeguards that allow individuals to correct those mistakes is a grave loss of freedom and protection for all of us.
While everyone is, of course, free to choose where they travel, and while there are plenty of countries that I as an American would never, for various reasons, consent to visit, I have to say that anyone who refuses to go to America based on this fear of being detained is displaying hysteria of equal or greater scale than the American government is displaying.
Yes,Brits didn`t use to need a visa for the U.S. but now U.S. immigration seems to be a trifle arbitary in its methodology, having flown the Atlantic you are quite likely to be sent back on landing for reasons you can only guess at!full moon ,officers had an argument with his wife ,theres an “r” in the month ,shifty eyes !Better to save the several hours travelling not to mention the airfare and go somewhere else if its not essential business.A pity as I love visiting the States!
The country is not just its government. I’d go.
Hell, I’m a Brown, mouthy, atheistic anarcho-syndicalist with previous memberships in the Communist Party and a “terrorist” organisation, and I don’t anticipate too much trouble should I want to get in.
[QUOTE=Renob]
And what is being conveniently forgotten by our Canadian friends is that it was the RCMP that fingered Arar for his arrest in the U.S. So while the U.S. shares most of the blame, without the Canadian government labeling him a terrorist none of this would have happened. So maybe you’re not so safe up there as you think, eh?
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It seriously has not been forgotten up here. In fact this is the single most damaging incident to happen to the mounties that I have ever witnessed. I have never seen articles written (and there were a lot of them) in the papers questioning the competence of the RCMP like this. I think it will take a very long time before they regain the level of confidence the had with the public before. And for many people here, the mounties had a near-mythical status.
[QUOTE=Balduran]
It seriously has not been forgotten up here.
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Yeah, no kidding… Renob, if you’re not aware of how much attention has been paid to the RCMP’s involvement in the Arar case, look it up. It shouldn’t be hard - I’ve noticed stories about it on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen at least a couple of times in the last month alone.
Worried Canadians, take note - if you fly out of a Canadian airport that does US Customs preclearance, you have a bit less to worry about. You’re still on Canadian soil, so if they try to take you off to the back room to be probed or whatever, you can refuse and choose to leave. (as long as you’re not being detained for violating Canadian law) Naturally, you can’t continue your trip to the US if you do this, but you do get to go home instead of to Syria or wherever. (source: a sign that was on the wall in the customs area at YOW) Realistically, you have nothing to worry about… but I know it made ME feel a little better.
There’s also the possibility that you will be convicted of a crime and sentenced to death, and then executed, without your embassy’s ever being notified. From here:
I will drive into the US for a day trip, but I’m keeping my self out of US airports , TYVM. No shit, I get less grief getting in China than I do entering the US . The Chinese border dude just stares at my visa for a good 45 seconds before sending me on my way- with the Yank, it’s “where are you going, who do you work for, what’s your occupation,what’s in your trunk, why do you have a Chinese visa in your passport, you a Commie?” (although the PRC is way more willing to chuck someone into a judicial black hole than the US-just wear that Tibetan flag tshirt and find out).
I don’t do biometrics. The last time I flew in the US was to SFO, about a month after they started doing thumb/eye/rectal scans on certain foreigners. Canadians were suppose to be exempt, but I spoke to a few on the plane who got the immigration officer who didn’t read all the way through the memo. I don’t believe they are doing this for land crossings, so I’ll stick to car trips. The ban on bottled water and toothpaste just iced it for me.
- ok, the ‘you a commie?’ line was unspoken, but the visa was commented upon. Jeeze, aren’t the US and PRC pretty much allies now?