# Non-Americans Voting in US Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060 "2004-03-24T02:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sisyphus\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sisyphus\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sisyphus_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/1 "2004-03-24T02:48:51Z")
An American colleague living and working here in Brisbane (Australia) suggested to me that non-Americans are more seriously affected by the outcomes of the US elections than Americans and, if non-Americans had the vote in the US elections, Kerry would win said elections in a landslide. I tended to agree but only after serious discussion with the colleague on whether, comparitively, the US domestic environment or the foreign environment is altered more or more significantly affected by the US election outcomes. The colleague’s notion is that things go on pretty much as before following an election for the US citizen, no matter who wins the US election. Other countries, on the other hand, stand to gain and/or lose significantly, depending on the successful candidate. I still have doubts about the colleague’s conclusions, it’s so difficult to quantify from my position as I don’t live in the US and have no past experience in the US following a US election. I do have past experience in Australia following a US election but have not noted any significant impact on me or my own environment. But then again, I’m not living in Afghanistan or Iraq, whose peoples have been significantly affected by the most immediate past US election results. One outcome of the discussion was to develop an interest by me in the concept of ‘hearing the voice’ of non-Americans on the up-coming US elections. I did a google on the key words ‘global voting’ and managed to discover a site devoted to enabling people around the globe to let the world, and the US know how they feel about policies that affect their lives but over which they have no control. The site (with URL) is [Allvote.org](http://Allvote.org) \<[http://allvote.org/](http://allvote.org/)\> The site allows people from around the world to express opinions via a poll. The current poll encourages a ‘vote’ for the two main candidates in the US election and a third option vaguely referred to as ‘other’. At present Kerry is leading, ‘other’ is not far behind and Bush is a distant third. There will, in the future be a capacity for results to be shown by individual countries and by world regions. It will be interesting to follow the results of the poll as the US elections approach. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/2 "2004-03-24T03:33:12Z")
It is a source for great sadness for me, but I am fairly certain Bush will win or be appointed President in the next election. At this point I am even inclined to think that Jeb Bush will inherit the office next. As to voteing rights, I can see allowing permanent legal residents the ability to vote. I do not know whether I support that idea or not. But as to people outside this country, I cannot think of a single reason why they should be allowed to vote. However, all that our constitution says on the issue is : > [@](#): > > Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector. There does not seem to be any prohibition against who can vote. The Bill of Rights says that people over 18 cannot be prevented from voteing, nor can people be denied enfranchisement based on gender or race. But there does not seem to be any condition of citizenship. It is left up to the states to decide who can vote. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/3 "2004-03-24T06:42:20Z")
Uhm…I would think that site might actually backfire. We weigh the opinions of our friends but if you don’t actually live here, you don’t know what sorts of issues we face in our day to day lives that might also affect our votes. The site is pretty meaningless IMO: > [@](#): > > It is not an exaggeration to say that the U.S. election is almost as important to citizens of other nations as it is to Americans. It’s not? I do hope the rest of the world has enough self-esteem to support us or tell us to take a hike to do the best they can for _their_ people. We seem to have had several countries do that just last week. > [@](#): > > [ALLVOTE.org](http://ALLVOTE.org) is sponsored by the Interreligious Engagement Project (IEP21), which is dedicated to peace, justice, and ecological sustainability. Weeeeellll…OK…maybe the OP is probably too young to have heard of Tom Lehrer, American satirist and musician, who released a song in the mid-60s called ‘The Folk Song Army’: _We are the Folk Song Army, Every one of us CARES! We all hate poverty, war, and injustice, Unlike the rest of you squares!_ The site (which has all of 69 votes right now) is a sweet idea, but you do realize people will just see how the French voted and go the other way 😉 And why are 53 of the votes from Merkuns? I think we’ll skew the results like an elephant on a seesaw. Although I think it would be beyond the organizers expertise to do so, I wish the site could keep us from voting at all. At least put us in a separate graph. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/4 "2004-03-24T15:31:35Z")
I dunno… I’ve always been of the opinion that if you want to vote go whole hog and get your citizenship. The process can be a headache but it shows you’re committed ( 🆒 ). Or hey, I’ll trade. The fine citizen’s of Australia can vote in US elections if we get to vote in theirs. I foresee hordes of Americans moving from nation to nation looking to get their votes in! Whee! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/5 "2004-03-24T16:46:37Z")
Thousands of non-citizens vote in presidential elections right now; I should know, I was married to one. [California in frenzy over voter fraud](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17999) > [@](#): > > Generally speaking, it is illegal in California to require voter identification and proof of nationality at polling places. In fact, no one can bring evidence of any kind to a polling place challenging any voters’ eligibility. Such challenges can be made only to the registrar of voters and only after registration has taken place, Bell said. > > In other words, there is no mechanism in California to prevent non-citizens from registering. > > That system has led to rampant abuse, resulting in blatantly fraudulent registrations uncovered by the Institute for Fair Elections, a non-profit, non-partisan citizen group dedicated to exposing voter fraud. Karen Saranita, president of the corporation, decried the failures of California’s voter registration requirements. > > “There are no verification requirements. The only thing election officials are required to verify is that it is an actual address,” she said. All a non-citizen has to do is lie about their citizenship and prove their current place of residency, and they can vote in any election they want. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/6 "2004-03-24T17:11:46Z")
As a Canadian I’ll say that American domestic policies directly affect my country. That however is a result of my country achieving about 50% of its GDP through trade with the Americans. I’m not sure why non Americans would feel the right to vote in an American federal election. We neither pay taxes, not subscribe to their laws. I mean, why exactly should we get to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/7 "2004-03-24T17:22:26Z")
Well, I’m a poll inspector who’s worked in several elections in NYC (the last time a few weeks ago in our oh-so-suspenseful Super Tuesday primary), and I know that every state is different, but… Anybody, including us pollworkers, can challenge a voter. It is not necessary to produce evidence about it but nothing prohibits anybody from even bringing it. And we have books that list all the names of all the voters in the district; if you’re not in it (usually it’s just some guy who’s recently moved or a girl who got married and changed her name) you get a special paper ballot instead of using the machines. But now that I read carefully, it looks like this is something that’s happening before the voter gets to the polling place. I remember registering to vote at the Cambridge City Hall and I had to produce a birth certificate showing I was born in America, but then again that was yet another state (MA). We do have in common the law that says you cannot require ID or proof of citizenship _at the polling place_; but I’m surprised you can register so easily. Is this something to do with the Motor Voter thing? I would imagine registering is more popular that way out there. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/8 "2004-03-24T17:48:18Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > We do have in common the law that says you cannot require ID or proof of citizenship _at the polling place_; but I’m surprised you can register so easily. Is this something to do with the Motor Voter thing? I would imagine registering is more popular that way out there. No, the experience with my ex-wife predated Moter Voter. She just registerd at city hall like everybody else. During our divorce, I dropped a dime on her to the California voter fraud unit. A special investigator with the California Secretary of State’s office completed an investigation, and recommended to the Los Angeles DA that she be prosecuted for voter fraud. The DA declined to prosecute, even though the case was well researched and documented. The Los Angeles District Attorney’s office has never prosecuted a voter fraud case. Ever. This was documented in a 1995 article in the Wall Street Journal, but I don’t have a link. We kicked this around before [in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3753773). ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/9 "2004-03-24T18:09:07Z")
Thanks. I’ll look at the thread. BTW, [www.allvote.org](http://www.allvote.org) is still chugging along, but the vast majority of the votes are from Americans :smack: How exactly is this supposed to work? And I wish they’d break down the ‘Other’ vote. Are these Naderites? Deaniacs? McCainians? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/10 "2004-03-24T19:35:30Z")
Yeah I’m definitely against people who don’t live under our laws getting to elect our leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Sisyphus\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sisyphus\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sisyphus_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/11 "2004-03-24T21:48:23Z")
**Grey** ponders: > [@](#): > > _I’m not sure why non Americans would feel the right to vote in an American federal election._ I guess the logic involves some permutation of the principle of subsidiarity which roughly translated to fit this situation might read, ‘The people most affected by a decision (read election outcome) are those that should make the decision.’ Where it breaks down for me is my own uncertainty that foreigners to the US are more affected by the election outcome than USers. But, then again, both Bush and Kerry are making plenty of assertions regarding global interest in this (November) election. **Mehetabel** , I, too, have some concerns regarding the allvote site and their capacity to make meaning from their poll. I voted, but I would guess that they ascertained my country or origin by my email address (the suffix ‘au’) because the country of origin was not canvassed in their poll. But, I would suspect that anonymous emails and those from some non-US ISPs that don’t observe the country suffix convention would all be translated as US emails (which have no country of origin suffix). BTW, what suffix does Canada use? ca? Further, the plethora of ‘other’ voters in their poll render the ‘other’ category meaningless because those votes aren’t disaggregated into ‘what other’. Like you, I wish they hadn’t included US voters in the poll. But, as their breakdown section of the site is still under construction, I would guess that they will eventually disaggregate the US voters from the non-US voters as soon as they get a meaningful sample size. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/12 "2004-03-25T03:13:56Z")
> [@Sisyphus' Stone](#): > > \*\*I guess the logic involves some permutation of the principle of subsidiarity which roughly translated to fit this situation might read, ‘The people most affected by a decision (read election outcome) are those that should make the decision.’ > > Where it breaks down for me is my own uncertainty that foreigners to the US are more affected by the election outcome than USers. But, then again, both Bush and Kerry are making plenty of assertions regarding global interest in this (November) election. You know, American is not a difficult word to write. US’er is plain lazy and many find it insulting. 270 million Americans are directly affected by US domestic and foreign policy. Sure some of us non Americans wind up on the short end of the trading/geopolitical stick but that’s a consequence poor foreign policy on our countries behalf. To ask the Americans to surrender control over the direction of their federal government would do nothing but invite ridicule. I can hear their answer right now…”No representation without taxation!”. Besides policy direction seems to be driven more by the Congress than the President. Care to ask the Americans to let us vote on their state level congressional reps? I mean Wisconsinites can’t vote for NY’s Senator but you’d like to ask that non citizens get a kick at that can? ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/13 "2004-03-25T03:33:43Z")
This colleague of yours was joking, right? I’m dumbfounded. How arrogant can you get? Can we Americans get together and vote and pick your next PM/President? I’d like a crack at France, personally 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/14 "2004-03-25T08:56:01Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Thousands of non-citizens vote in presidential elections right now; I should know, I was married to one. > > [California in frenzy over voter fraud](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17999) > > All a non-citizen has to do is lie about their citizenship and prove their current place of residency, and they can vote in any election they want. BS, every time I go to the polls HERE IN CALIFORNIA, they ask for my CALIFORNIA DRIVERS LICENSE. They don’t check my address either, they look up my name. After all it is an alphabetical list. Missinformation like that from Fear Itself belongs in the pit, where it can be given the treatment it diserves. ---
**Author:** ![Sisyphus\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sisyphus\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sisyphus_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/15 "2004-03-25T11:07:31Z")
Grey asserts: > [@](#): > > _You know, American is not a difficult word to write. US’er (sic) is plain lazy and many find it insulting._ Not lazy, just resentful on behalf of all North and South Americans whose entitlement to the sobriquet, ‘American’ has been usurped by the most insensitive and greedy of nations on the globe. Yes, I’m aware of the claim that the US is the only country in that part of the world that uses ‘America’ in the whole of their Statehood title (United States of America), but still, it’s a bit of a leap to make claim to all of that part of the global village by referring to themselves as the only ‘America’. BTW, it’s USers, not US’ers. Your gratuituous use of the apostrophe irks me, thus my crankiness. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/16 "2004-03-25T11:20:05Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > BS, every time I go to the polls HERE IN CALIFORNIA, they ask for my CALIFORNIA DRIVERS LICENSE. They don’t check my address either, they look up my name. After all it is an alphabetical list. Missinformation like that from Fear Itself belongs in the pit, where it can be given the treatment it diserves. The fact that your name is on a list only means that you are registered to vote, which is easy for non-citizens to do. As for showing your license when you vote, non-citizens can get driver’s licenses too, you know. I don’t see where anything I reported was “misinformation”; I had first hand experience with exactly the kind of voter fraud described in the article. If you have evidence that what was reported is false, you are free to present it. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/17 "2004-03-25T11:58:21Z")
> [@Sisyphus' Stone](#): > > Not lazy, just resentful on behalf of all North and South Americans whose entitlement to the sobriquet, ‘American’ has been usurped by the most insensitive and greedy of nations on the globe. Yes, I’m aware of the claim that the US is the only country in that part of the world that uses ‘America’ in the whole of their Statehood title (United States of America), but still, it’s a bit of a leap to make claim to all of that part of the global village by referring to themselves as the only ‘America’. BTW, it’s USers, not US’ers. Your gratuituous use of the apostrophe irks me, thus my crankiness. Oh well then my apologies. I suggest you go have a talk with **Aldebaran** and get that whole moronic thing standardized. He at least manages to excuse it based on dyslexia, a foreign language and a keyboard with no roman letters on it. Could you maybe address the actual points of my post? I mean as opposed to being the banner bearer for Bolivian aspirations to be known as Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Tokyo\_Mann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@Tokyo\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tokyo_Mann)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/18 "2004-03-25T12:12:21Z")
Some thoughts: > [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > This colleague of yours was joking, right? > > I’m dumbfounded. I couldn’t say it better. > [@Sisyphus' Stone](#): > > Where it breaks down for me is my own uncertainty that foreigners to the US are more affected by the election outcome than USers. But, then again, both Bush and Kerry are making plenty of assertions regarding global interest in this (November) election. I can’t understand the uncertainly. :rolleyes: Show me any conceivable case where foreign citizens living in their own country would be more affected than US citizens living in the US. Possibly a war, but leaving right or wrong aside, residents of invaded countries never get polled. Traditionally foreign citizens living IN a country have not had the right to vote, this is changing in certain European countries. [http://perso.nnx.com/marion/english66.htm](http://perso.nnx.com/marion/english66.htm) There are debates on extending voting franchise to permanent residents for local elections in Japan, although it is opposed by the Liberal Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/19 "2004-03-25T18:49:27Z")
> [@Sisyphus' Stone](#): > > The colleague’s notion is that things go on pretty much as before following an election for the US citizen, no matter who wins the US election. Other countries, on the other hand, stand to gain and/or lose significantly, depending on the successful candidate. This, to me, is the most absurd part of this idea. It makes no difference to Americans who wins the election? I guess, living in Australia, your colleague doesn’t know about the tremendous differences there are between the two parties’ positions on many domestic issues. Ed ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060/20 "2004-03-25T18:58:50Z")
> [@Sisyphus' Stone](#): > > Grey asserts: > > Not lazy, just resentful on behalf of all North and South Americans whose entitlement to the sobriquet, ‘American’ has been usurped by the most insensitive and greedy of nations on the globe. Yes, I’m aware of the claim that the US is the only country in that part of the world that uses ‘America’ in the whole of their Statehood title (United States of America), but still, it’s a bit of a leap to make claim to all of that part of the global village by referring to themselves as the only ‘America’. BTW, it’s USers, not US’ers. Your gratuituous use of the apostrophe irks me, thus my crankiness. “Usurped” is much too strong a word. I would call it the natural evolution of a language. The word “American” now means “a citizen of the USA”. That’s true even among people who live in the other nations of North and South America. For example, I lived in Canada for five years, and I assure you that the normal word we used to refer to people south of the border was “American”. We’d complain about all the American tourists, for example. Logically, I agree, “American” should be used for a resident of the entire continents. But language is not always logical. Ed [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-americans-voting-in-us-election/236060.md?page=2)