# Non-Apology Apologies and why they don't help a goddamn thing
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 13, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187 "2005-04-13T20:55:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/1 "2005-04-13T20:55:30Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#):
>
> Minnie, I apologized if my meaning was unclear.
> I now further apologize if you misunderstood me.
> I apologize if you took my meaning as an insult even though it wasn’t intended as such.
> I apologize if I offended you in any way, even if it wasn’t intended by me as such.
> I apologize for anything I have ever done that you may have misinterpreted as an insult.
>
> Anything else I can do?
Yes. Read this article:
[http://www.outsports.com/columns/20031217buzinskiapology.htm](http://www.outsports.com/columns/20031217buzinskiapology.htm)
We all clear on what an actual apology is? And what a non-apology apology is? Good.
If you are going to offer an apology, offer one that is sincere and not you saying “Well, I’m sorry you are so stupid.” Otherwise, don’t fucking bother, it’s just doubly insulting.
One more thing-- how exactly is my pointing out that your “apology” was really NOT one “insulting you”? Yet somehow, you say that characterising my actions as “stupid” and “assinine” is NOT meant to be insulting? What the fuck kind of double standard is that?
I do not have any problem with what you said in the [ATMB thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=311554). My problem is 100% with THE WAY you said it. What is so fucking wrong with saying, “Look, this kind of thing might make us legally vulerable, and we don’t want that. So, the discussions you are talking about are not okay with us.”
Jesus Christ, we are not all the fucking morons you seem to think we are. Most of us are able to look at advice we are given and make a rational decision about whether it applies to our particular situation or not. Some of us have doctors who are not very fucking helpful and can’t be fucking bothered to take the time to answer our questions. They are just little cogs in the vast HMO machine, and the next cog is going to rush out of the exam room just as fast as the cog I have now. Most of us in that situation don’t have another choice for health care or can’t afford it if we do. And we’re the lucky ones in American society-- we actually have some access to medical care! The minor stuff, we are on our own. We can’t expect much more from our doctors than to get a diagnosis and have a prescription thrown at us as they run out the door. We have to gather the information we can and make up our own minds on how to proceed.
Granted, there are always going to be a few morons who can’t rationally decide things and will do any stupid thing they are told. It pisses me off to no end that everything in society is now geared to protecting these morons from suing people when they injure themselves with their own stupidity, but I know the SDMB doesn’t have much choice in that matter. I think you are going overboard in this instance, I don’t like it, but that’s the way it is. Fine.
However, I am not one of those morons, and I don’t appreciate being lumped in with them. If I take some advice and it happens to cause me some harm, it’s not the other poster’s fault for offering it, it’s mine for taking it. Therefore, I carefully consider the advice I am given and only do those things that I think have little or no potential for harm. So far, the worst thing that has ever happened to me from following advice on a message board was ending up with 5 quarts of inedible chili. Give us some fucking credit for having half a brain, okay?
And fer crissakes, instead of going around complaining that all these people are taking what you say as insults when you “don’t intend” that-- maybe you should think perhaps people are taking what you say as insults because THAT’S HOW YOU ARE FUCKING SAYING IT. I’m far from the first person that you’ve pissed off without “intending” to. Although frankly, I think you are just being disingenous and did intend to be insulting. Your non-apology apologies point in that direction, as well.
---
### Author:  [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/2 "2005-04-13T21:14:25Z")
Do you have any clue at all? This wasn’t about **you**. You flew off the handle when he tried to explain that these are legal issues involving more than just you and the party who gave you the advice.
You took something as an insult that was in no way meant as an insult. It was a misunderstanding, and CK apologized for the misunderstanding. Conversation over.
You got all riled up because he made a ‘non-apology’. Why should he apologize? He didn’t do anything wrong. _You_ took it wrong. That’s not his fault.
> [@](#):
>
> Most of us are able to look at advice we are given and make a rational decision about whether it applies to our particular situation or not.
And some posters here are underage or otherwise not capable of making rational decisions about particular situations. Lawyers aren’t going to listen to the “but most of us understood” argument.
You’ve blown this whole thing completely out of proportion, in my humble opinion.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/3 "2005-04-13T21:41:03Z")
Oh, chill out. Nobody insulted you in that thread, and you’re only embarassing yourself with this hysterical over-reaction to a non-exsistent slight. Stop blaming others for your own hypersensitivity and lack of reading comprehension.
---
### Author:  [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/4 "2005-04-13T21:47:53Z")
The best thing to do would have been to make fun of **CK** ’s error in spelling the word “asinine.”
For Example:
Assinine? Is that what you call it when it takes you nine tries to sit on the toilet?
---
### Author:  [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/5 "2005-04-13T21:55:05Z")
Minnie I’m glad you did this; I was going to but was too annoyed to think logically. Other people have complained about CK’s attitude before and I didn’t exactly see what they were getting at. But now I do. His attitude is: “I am right. You are wrong. I’m sorry you can’t see that.” And that’s an apology.
I wonder why CK lets anything be said on these boards since it’s always possible that whatever you say will be misinterpreted by someone and that person might die as a result.
---
### Author:  [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/6 "2005-04-13T22:13:08Z")
> [@Rufus Xavier](#):
>
> The best thing to do would have been to make fun of **CK** ’s error in spelling the word “asinine.”
>
> For Example:
>
> Assinine? Is that what you call it when it takes you nine tries to sit on the toilet?
Dangit, I THOUGHT that looked wrong! :smack:
---
### Author:  [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/7 "2005-04-13T22:22:13Z")
I’m somewhere between **Minnie/KayT** and **FilmGeek/Miller**. I don’t think it’s worth getting your panties in a bunch, but I do think that **CK** was rude in his answer to a reasonable question.
Whether he thinks so or not, **CK** called the OP asinine for even thinking about home remedies suggested on the message boards. Sure, he couched it in a vague term of “people who would…”, but by reading the OP you know that **Minnie** is likely in that group.
Personally, I think the no medical advice rule is too strict. What the registration agreement actually says is that if you take a poster’s advice, it’s not SDMB’s liability. As far as I can tell, there’s nothing explicitly banning it. The admins have just gotten a little jumpy.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/8 "2005-04-13T22:26:19Z")
I’m sorry that I can’t view the OP as anything other than whinery.
---
### Author:  [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/9 "2005-04-13T22:29:06Z")
[This article](http://www.josephdobrian.com/occupation/guilty.html) was linked to in the article I linked to. This is, I think a pretty good way to handle things. Note that C K did none of these things. You know, if he had just said “I’m sorry _that_ my meaning wasn’t clear” as opposed to “I’m sorry\* if \* my meaning wasn’t clear”, it would have made all the difference in the world.
And how in the fucking world can people think that “What an asinine thing to do!” ISN’T an insult? What would happen if I told someone (outside the Pit)–“You did x? What an asinine thing to do!” I’d most likely get warned to stop being a jerk-- and rightly so.
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### Author:  [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/10 "2005-04-13T22:59:12Z")
**MinniePurl** just relax and take deep breaths…
\< MEDICAL ADVICE NOT ALLOWED \>
darn, ok, **CK** try pulling your foot out of your mouth before answering OPs…
\
fuck me. How can I say anything …
\
shit, I’m going to go postal
\
mmmmm…
my cat’s breath smells of cat food.
---
### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/11 "2005-04-13T23:17:43Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#):
>
> You know, if he had just said “I’m sorry _that_ my meaning wasn’t clear” as opposed to “I’m sorry\* if \* my meaning wasn’t clear”, it would have made all the difference in the world.
😕
How is saying “I’m sorry _if_ my meaning wasn’t clear” an insult?
By using _“that”_ he would indicate that he accepted he wasn’t being clear. Using _“if”_ means he thinks he was clear, but there must have been a misunderstanding. How is _either_ statement considered insulting?
---
### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/12 "2005-04-13T23:20:05Z")
I didn’t see where **CK** apologized to **Minnie** for anything he might conceivably do in the future (regardless of intent). What’s up with that?
---
### Author:  [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/13 "2005-04-14T00:01:11Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#):
>
> 😕
>
> How is saying “I’m sorry _if_ my meaning wasn’t clear” an insult?
>
> By using _“that”_ he would indicate that he accepted he wasn’t being clear. Using _“if”_ means he thinks he was clear, but there must have been a misunderstanding. How is _either_ statement considered insulting?
1. If really was a misunderstanding (which I doubt), it is dismissive. As **kayT** said, it’s just saying “I am right. You are wrong. I’m sorry you can’t see that.”
2. In this particular case, it’s disingenuous. His meaning was clear. I said I had asked for advice regarding home remedies in the past. He said “Asking that was “assinine””. If you said “Yesterday I went walking in the rain”, and I, as someone in a position of authority, replied to you and said “Walking in the rain is an idiotic thing to do”, would you really try to make the case that I WASN’T being insulting to you? If you said “I dyed my hair green” and I said “Dying your hair green was a wonderful thing to do”, would you say I wasn’t being complimentary?
For him to claim that, oh he wasn’t being insulting, that I just misunderstood him, poor stupid thing that I am… Good God, do I really have to spell it out in this much detail?
Did you read either of the articles I linked to? If he thinks he’s in the right, then he should say so, not offer snide, insincere non-apologies. If you are going to apologize, sincerely apologize. If you aren’t, defend yourself. Don’t weasel around with this “I’m sorry you’re making me apologize” bullshit. I’m sick of the passive-agressive bullshit. If you are going to insult someone, fucking insult them! Don’t pull this crap, then flutter your eyelashes and say “Oh, NO, I didn’t mean it like that! You must have misunderstood!” Like hell I misunderstood.
---
### Author:  [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/14 "2005-04-14T00:11:40Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#):
>
> I’m sorry that I can’t view the OP as anything other than whinery.
Fair enough. At least you aren’t saying “I’m sorry if you think that I can’t view the OP as anything other than whinery, because that’s not what I intended.”
---
### Author:  [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/15 "2005-04-14T00:13:04Z")
I don’t agree with **CK** ’s assertion that ASKING for medical advice is asinine.
Asking for information is never asinine. I’ve never started a thread looking for medical advice myself, but I can see why people do if they’re stumped about some health issue. Heck, most of the replies to most of the medical threads are some variation on “ASK YOUR DOCTOR.” Often, though, someone brings up an issue that the “patient” might not have thought of, and now they are armed with one more bit of information they can ASK THEIR DOCTOR about.
Sometimes, they’re started because, deep down, the OP knows what they really need is a kick in the butt from a bunch of people saying “For god’s sake, ASK YOUR DOCTOR.”
Now, following advice given on a message board without checking and rechecking it with professionals? THAT’s asinine. I have no problem saying that, and I understand the board’s policies to legally defend themselves from idiots. But I can’t see the point of a message board if you’re not allowed to ask questions, because you might be too stupid to use the information wisely.
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### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/16 "2005-04-14T00:15:11Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#):
>
> Good God, do I really have to spell it out in this much detail?
>
> Did you read either of the articles I linked to?
Exactly what are you trying to insinuate by the above quoted statements?
---
### Author:  [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/17 "2005-04-14T00:22:57Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> I didn’t see where **CK** apologized to **Minnie** for anything he might conceivably do in the future (regardless of intent). What’s up with that?
And he didn’t even _mention_ his indelicate behaviour which caused so much distress to Mr. Kittredge. I’m outraged, personally.
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/18 "2005-04-14T00:28:38Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#):
>
> [http://www.outsports.com/columns/20031217buzinskiapology.htm](http://www.outsports.com/columns/20031217buzinskiapology.htm)
Opening lines from said link (bolding mine):
> [@](#):
>
> With these words, **Millen tried to extricate himself from a mess he created by calling former Lions receiver Johnnie Morton a “faggot.”** Sorry, Matt (a fellow Penn State alum), but apology not accepted.
>
> It’s not that I don’t believe in the power of redemption or of an apology made from the heart. What I object to the are the words Millen used. “I apologize IF I offended anyone.” Not very sincere and uttered more out of obligation that contrition. It’s more like a “non-apology apology.”
Pardon me, but the author of that article is gay; that he has a problem with such and “apology” is no surprise. It would have been better to link to the one by [Joseph Dobrian](http://www.josephdobrian.com/occupation/guilty.html).
---
### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/19 "2005-04-14T00:39:36Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> \Pardon me, but the author of that article is gay; that he has a problem with such and “apology” is no surprise. \
You’ve lost me; if the apology didn’t appease a member of the group that was insulted, it doesn’t sound like much of an apology to me.
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/20 "2005-04-14T00:42:16Z")
> [@featherlou](#):
>
> You’ve lost me; if the apology didn’t appease a member of the group that was insulted, it doesn’t sound like much of an apology to me.
Why do you think I put apology in quotes? 🙂
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