# Non-Apology Apologies and why they don't help a goddamn thing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187 "2005-04-13T20:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/61 "2005-04-14T20:48:30Z")
He said what you did was asinine. I have every confidence Einstein did some pretty asinine shit from time to time too. Unless you make a general habit of it though it doesn’t mean you’re asinine. Don’t rightly see that **Dex** ever said that to you, that you were asinine yourself or even imply you were stupid as the result of an asinine act. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/62 "2005-04-14T20:50:38Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > I live in the United States, but that does not make me an American. OKay, on second look that was a bad example. How about “I live in Colorado, but that doesn’t make me a Coloradoan.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/63 "2005-04-14T20:51:08Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > I have given birth, but that did not make me a mother. Ever hear of surrogate mothers? > [@](#): > > _I own a dog, but that does not make me a dog owner._ Maybe the dog owns _you_! > [@](#): > > _I live in the United States, but that does not make me an American._ No, having citizenship makes you an American. > [@](#): > > _If a person makes a stupid mistake, it means they aren’t very smart in whatever area they made the stupid mistake in._ Logical fallacy. My father has a degree in chemistry; he wears a bridge because one of his projects exploded and knocked out some of his teeth. He was not aware that it was going to do that; this does not mean that he’s a stupid chemist. > [@](#): > > _But he did say (or strongly imply) I was an “assinine” poster._ In your opinion. In my opinion, and apparently in the opinion of everyone else in this threat, your opinion couldn’t be more wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/64 "2005-04-14T20:54:42Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > OKay, on second look that was a bad example. How about “I live in Colorado, but that doesn’t make me a Coloradoan.” Depends. Were you born in Colorado? ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/65 "2005-04-14T20:59:28Z")
> [@stretch](#): > > And just because you are paying for a general service doesn’t mean you, **MinniePurl** , will get to dictate all of the terms of the service. If I’m paying for a general service, I think it’s reasonable that it will conform to the accepted standards for paid general services for in our society. If I go into a shoe store and ask “Excuse me, where are the size 8 1/2’s?” I don’t expect to get the reply “What an asinine thing to ask. They’re over there.” \*\*Even if \*\* there is a huge sign that says “Here are the size 8 1/2’s!” And this was not the case-- there was no equivalent of a big sign. Now maybe if I went into the store and said “Hey, idiot, where the fuck are the size 81/2’s?” they’d be justified in giving a less than neutral answer. But again, that’s not the case here. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/66 "2005-04-14T21:17:09Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Depends. Were you born in Colorado? No, but I have lived here ever since I was a baby. The vast majority of people would say I was a Coloradoan. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Ever hear of surrogate mothers? Yes, they are mothers. They may not be genetically related to the child they bore, and they probably do not retain custody of the child they bore, but they are mothers. Surrogate mothers. Not all mothers are surrogate mothers, but all surrogate mothers are mothers. Women who use donor eggs are mothers, as are the egg donors. Egg donors are not custodial mothers, they do not raise the children, but they are a subset of the sets of mothers. And when I said imply, I should have said infer. I’m sorry that I chose my words incorrectly. (Notice I did not say “I’m sorry if you think I used the wrong word.”) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/67 "2005-04-14T21:17:37Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > If I cannot imply people’s feelings and intentions from what people say and how they say it, then how the hell does anyone communicate with anyone? Normally, one would ask before assuming the worst. > [@](#): > > _And, as the person that said it, if I say “Choosing the name that you did is a moronic thing to do”, that means I think you are moron. If I didn’t think that, I would say it differently._ You should say it differenlty even if you _did_ think that. How about an example from our very board? As you are most likely aware, it’s against the rules to call anyone a troll. However, it is _not_ against the rules to call somoene’s argument “trolling”. Ergo, if I were to say that I think your issue with **Dex** is trolling (which I don’t), I wouldn’t attract so much as a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Bean\_Counter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@Bean\_Counter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bean_Counter)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/68 "2005-04-14T21:19:35Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > If I’m paying for a general service, I think it’s reasonable that it will conform to the accepted standards for paid general services for in our society. Ever been to Ed Debevic’s restaurant? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/69 "2005-04-14T21:23:38Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > Yes, they are mothers. They may not be genetically related to the child they bore, and they probably do not retain custody of the child they bore, but they are mothers. Surrogate mothers. Not all mothers are surrogate mothers, but all surrogate mothers are mothers. Women who use donor eggs are mothers, as are the egg donors. Egg donors are not custodial mothers, they do not raise the children, but they are a subset of the sets of mothers. Then they’re not quite the same thing as a typical mother, are they? ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/70 "2005-04-14T21:28:13Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Then they’re not quite the same thing as a typical mother, are they? Atypical mothers are still mothers. “Typical mothers” are a subset of the larger set of “Mothers”. They may comprise the majority of the set, but they are still a subset. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/71 "2005-04-14T21:29:41Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > If I’m paying for a general service, I think it’s reasonable that it will conform to the accepted standards for paid general services for in our society. A large part of the accepted standards for service at this board were set before you registered. This is the way the board was when you signed up and paid your money—it hasn’t changed. Again, if the standards of the board are not to your liking, you are welcome to find a place that has standards more in line with yours. If you did your research before becoming a board member, then you knew that the admins/mods have personalities and those come through to an extent in their posts. You knew what the standards were and chose to pay. Now quite whining about how the admins/mods are funny and snarky until they are that way to you. You are demanding that people meet your requirements in discourse because you pay money–that’s just stupid (just so there’s no confusion, that’s an insult). I pay money too, and I like the way **CK** responded to you. See, a customer who understands what she paid for and is pleased with the service. I don’t think you were being insulted in the first place. Not everyone parses _if_ and \*that \* to the extent that you apparently do. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/72 "2005-04-14T21:32:43Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Normally, one would ask before assuming the worst.You should say it differenlty even if you _did_ think that. > > How about an example from our very board? > > As you are most likely aware, it’s against the rules to call anyone a troll. However, it is _not_ against the rules to call somoene’s argument “trolling”. Ergo, if I were to say that I think your issue with **Dex** is trolling (which I don’t), I wouldn’t attract so much as a warning. Which I think is ridiculous. If it’s against the rules to call someone a troll, it also should be against the rules to say someone is trolling. A troll is someone who is trolling. Effectively the same thing. Plus, if you see someone trolling, aren’t you supposed to not say anything, and just report the post? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/73 "2005-04-14T21:32:52Z")
Heck, I’d pay extra to see more mods come in here and insult **Minnie**. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/74 "2005-04-14T21:33:42Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > Atypical mothers are still mothers. “Typical mothers” are a subset of the larger set of “Mothers”. They may comprise the majority of the set, but they are still a subset. What do you immediately think of when you hear the word “mother”? I doubt that it’s “surrogate” or “egg donor”. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/75 "2005-04-14T21:37:14Z")
I was here when the board went pay-to-post. Prior to that, people complained earlier about the attitude of the mods and admins. The response was usually “You’re getting this for free, so you can’t complain.” Well, it isn’t free anymore. What’s “like it or lump it” on a free board just don’t fly on a pay board. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/76 "2005-04-14T21:40:01Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > Which I think is ridiculous. If it’s against the rules to call someone a troll, it also should be against the rules to say someone is trolling. A troll is someone who is trolling. Effectively the same thing. Plus, if you see someone trolling, aren’t you supposed to not say anything, and just report the post? That’s where you’re having a disconnect. The rule was initially etablished in Great Debates, where personal attacks are not allowed. It is, however, allowable to attack the argument. Saying the argument is trolling is allowed but saying the poster who made the argument is not. ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/77 "2005-04-14T21:40:07Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > What do you immediately think of when you hear the word “mother”? I doubt that it’s “surrogate” or “egg donor”. When I hear “American” I think of an American citizen living in America. That doesn’t mean that American citizens who are living overseas aren’t Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/78 "2005-04-14T21:45:21Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > When I hear “American” I think of an American citizen living in America. That doesn’t mean that American citizens who are living overseas aren’t Americans. And the fact that one gives birth does not automatically make one a “mother” in the traditional sense. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/79 "2005-04-14T21:47:14Z")
Sorry, “automatically” was a bad choice. Please pretend I said, “necessarily”. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187/80 "2005-04-14T21:50:00Z")
> [@MinniePurl](#): > > I was here when the board went pay-to-post. Prior to that, people complained earlier about the attitude of the mods and admins. The response was usually “You’re getting this for free, so you can’t complain.” Well, it isn’t free anymore. What’s “like it or lump it” on a free board just don’t fly on a pay board. I don’t agree. You knew what the board was like when you paid. There were no indications that the mods/admins would be required to placate the babies on board when it went pay (again, full-on insult there). You knew what you were getting and now you’re whining. This is pretty simple; I can’t believe we have to go into such detail to explain it to you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-apology-apologies-and-why-they-dont-help-a-goddamn-thing/299187.md?page=5)